Transforming Women's Soccer | TMJ Co-CEO, Sara Toussaint

HSU Sara Toussaint 

Natasha Nuytten: Welcome to Human Side Up, everyone. My name is Natasha Nuytten, and I am your host, and I'm really excited to share today's conversation with you. I always have amazing conversations, but this one with Sarah Toussaint was just a delight and a joy. She's just such a wonderful person to engage with. Sarah has over 20 years of experience in sports marketing and management and has made significant contributions across various leagues from Major League Baseball and Major League Soccer, as well as the Mexican national team. She's also recognized on the inaugural Latinos in Sports list in 2020 for her impactful work. She's recently been appointed as the co-CEO and head of Catalyst, which is the new commercial division of TMJ, which is a leading Hispanic-owned women's soccer agency and is the co-owner of the women's national soccer team, the NC Courage, and a founding partner at Underdog Ventures, which is a social impact enterprise that supports underrepresented founders and offers marketing services in sports and entertainment. Sarah is educated in policy from the University of Chicago and holds an MBA from Stern, but her academic background and her professional and personal backgrounds all combined have really equipped her a really strong foundation in both business and policy, which she has been leveraging in her professional endeavors for years. Sarah has also been active in advocating through her involvement with Latinx in Sports, which is a nonprofit organization dedicated to increasing visibility and influence for Latinx individuals in the sports industry. She is whip smart, full of joy and lots of fire, and a delightful human that I am super excited to introduce you to today. Sarah Toussaint, I'm so excited to have you here and be having this conversation with you. Thank you, A, for making time. I know how busy you are as a human being and doing all the things that you're doing, but I also just really appreciate your, both your passion and your emotion around the things that we're talking about here today, but also your commitment to doing it, which is why you're such a busy human, because you are trying to make opportunity and access. And so I'm really excited. So thank you for being here. 

Sara Toussaint: Oh, thank you for having me. It is an honor and it is a pleasure. And I don't know if you got time allotment, but I'll try and stay under it because I can go on for a while. 

Natasha Nuytten: No worries. That's why we have great editors. So super excited to have you here. So I'm going to ask you a question that we start with all of our guests, which is if there were one or two words to describe you that you would pick that we might not see on a CV or resume, what would they be? And when did you start to own them for yourself as true? 

Sara Toussaint: Two words. The first one is energetic and the second one in terms of two words, compassionate for energetic. I am, I just want to move on stuff that gets me excited, which luckily that's, career wise, it's been most of my career for the most part. Don't get me wrong. Every time, every career will have its lulls where you're just like, Oh, there's some drag, some work that kind of feels like this is dragging me out. But I want to be enthusiastic. I have been enthusiastic. And so I hope that energy gets absorbed and is seen by the people around me. I will say that it's not something I necessarily like to embrace. It was not a characteristic I necessarily embrace. I felt that in order to quote unquote, be a leader, you had to be more measured, which of course is a good thing, but that meant you were maybe a slower talker and you digested every word. And I'm very much a, I want the data, but in the end, I'm going to go what feels right. And sometimes that's a very quick feeling. And that's where some of the energy comes from. And when you say energetic, it's certainly like fast, fast paced and, let's move. But it's also like the enthusiasm behind the work that I'm doing, if that makes sense. So energy is both from a maybe like fast pace, but also like just the level of excitement I have for whatever it is I'm working on. And so when did I embrace that? I think, as I've been approached throughout the last few years, probably, I can actually pinpoint it to let's say post like 2018. I've seen this bullet point on job descriptions and its executive presence. And I just remember thinking, I don't have that. And being very self-conscious about it and actually went and spoke to a career coach or somebody helped me navigate what my next path is going to be. Because there were so many areas I could take and you just working with her, I realized I don't want to change. I'm good. Like I am really comfortable with who I am. So that was one. And the same thing goes with the compassionate piece. Like I remember talking with the former manager about how we should be rewarding some of our interns. And it was we haven't done that before, or this is how it's always been done. Or I'm just remembering, you know what, these interns will make a ton of money. Can we just not give them a little bit more and just make sure they're in a good headspace to give us every, if we're asking for everything can we help them help them better, be positioned to, to be able to do that. And so I just feel like I make a lot of decisions based on compassion and I don't, I think that's mostly good. I think that's mostly good. I think there may be moments where, maybe I was a sucker, or maybe I was naive, but I'm also okay with that because I rather believe that at least for me, most of the people I work with are good people and we want to come to the same conclusion. And it's funny, even in negotiations, whether it's with myself or myself and, employer or myself and a vendor or myself in a consult, whatever it is, I'm always thinking about their positioning like how does it feel to be in their shoes? And I want to come across as somebody who's empathetic to what they want out of this negotiating table, hoping that it will make for a better negotiation. And I think that's been mostly good. I think of, I don't want to say one, I think we've both come out okay feeling okay, Sarah is somebody I can work with and trust and she's telling me, all her cards are on the table and she's not, just trying to say one thing to do another, it's not like it's calculated, but calculated from a place of I really want them to feel like I heard where they're coming from. I understand their position. I want to get what I want out of this too. But is there somewhere where we feel like this is not a lot like a lot of war, so anyway, those are the two things that were a very long answer.

Natasha Nuytten: But it was a great answer. And you just described amazing leadership, right? Like I'm with you, like what the hell does executive presence even mean? What does that mean? Does that mean that I show up for my team? Does that mean I'm advocating for them and putting them in the spotlight or is it some, I'm taking all this, right? There's that old school version of this. And then there is the version that is led with compassion and empathy, the things you were just talking about. Like I want everybody to win. I think we are plagued and I'm going to say particularly in this country though, I think in a lot of places, but particularly here with the zero sum thinking that if you win, I can't win. And I think what you're talking about is that I want to know what you want on it. Like, how do we partner together? Like, how does everybody, there is enough, right? There is enough. And I think that really goes to the notion of inclusion and diversity, all these things that you're working toward access, but that leadership, like it's the foundation for that. So you just summed everything up and we could be done talking at this point. 

Sara Toussaint: No, thank you. And you know what you said? It's what really, what is the question? What does it mean to have executive presence? And to me, it immediately went, I look a certain way, I talk a certain way, I act a certain way. And it's a very prescribed way, especially in the industry that I'm in, which is sports, right? But you're right. Why did I make that assumption? Why couldn't I have been like, no, this is what it should be is what it is to me. 

Natasha Nuytten: But yeah, I think we've all done that though. I'm not putting it on you to feel bad about that because I think that's how we've all grown up. I think there has been a shift maybe in the last, let's say 15 years ago, maybe people started talking about it, but like really it hasn't taken hold in business until recently, that it doesn't look the way we thought that it always did. So I love that. I love that's where your head is and you're like, yeah, but that's not me. So how do I do this and still be my own self and bring my own self and have that fire and enthusiasm that you have, which is one of the words I use to describe you when I was doing an intro, I was like just this fiery, like passionate. So I think that's fantastic. I love it. You're right. Yeah. Let's talk a little a bit about if you don't mind about your own journey and some of the experiences that you have had that have shaped maybe the way you think about leadership or the way you think about inclusion in the work that you do. Because you have spent a lot of time in your career doing a lot of different things, right? Like you're educated in policy and those types of things in business, but you've spent a lot of time thinking about access, opportunity, equity. So what are some of the experiences you've had that have shaped your understanding of those things? 

Sara Toussaint: Yeah, I think I've definitely zigzagged my career, which I think makes me a little bit more open to the possibilities and potential of people, like what they want, if they're interested in joining, where I'm working and my team or what have you. But I think like where all that really is, as I'm thinking about it, which I have thought about it before, but I don't you're getting to the origin story, which I think is it could go really deep, but like at the most conscious for me was getting to college and feeling so like a fish out of water. And probably a lot of people felt that way. But I went to a pretty elite institution but I attended Chicago public schools my whole, my whole life. And so getting to college and feeling like, oh my God, I don't know the things these people are talking about. And I remember being so frustrated and not dumb, but just like ill-equipped. Cause I'm like, I know I can do this. And I told myself, I'm like, all right, I got my first D in college. And I was like, oh, horrible. And I was like, okay, I just have to graduate with at least a 3.0. That was the goal. That was a focus. But in the meantime, I just realized how not prepared I was. And I thought about my public school education and I was like, all right I can try and help some people with this. And so I would actually go back to my high school and say, this is what my college experience is like, these are the things that you should be focusing on. So that was just like a personal experience. That I, where I was consciously motivated to help in some shape or form. So it was like the first instance. And I think since then it is just like not being, not feeling welcome in other spaces. That was maybe primarily, male dominant. And I felt I had to, fit in a certain way and act a certain way and realize that wasn't going to get me any more respected or, the interesting career, career projects or anything like that. And I just realized, like one, like just be me. That's it. And if there's other ways that I can help others be successful, let's do that. And because I would have liked that for myself. So it wasn't like some grand plan. It was just some like innate, I think, feeling I've always had to, not just complain about something, but figure out if there's a way to do something about it or help somebody else feeling a certain way. So I have no strategic approach to any of the things I do. It's just what feels right that usually led to a lot of my decisions in this space of trying to be more inclusive and embrace other people's experiences, whether it's personal or career wise. So yeah. 

Natasha Nuytten: I love it. And I am a public school kid myself. Nice. And I appreciate though, that this kind of comes back to that compassion you were talking about earlier and that leadership of reaching back, and grabbing the hand of someone and pulling them forward or showing them the path, because, there's that old saying if you can't see it, you can't be it kind of thing. And I think that's really very true, and I was just having a conversation with someone today who is a professional and talent acquisition with 25 years of experience, super, super smart, working for a great tech company in the startup world. Things don't always pan out. So as an investor they don't always go the way that you hope. And she's making a transition and we were looking at, we're both a similar age and she's just a couple of years older than I was. And I was like, there is an opportunity here for you as a person to be the thing we didn't see at our age, right? Like I'm almost 50. And when I was growing up, I was like, wait, thanks dad for the Jamaican skin here. There was a time I had really strong women in my life, I was really fortunate in that regard. There was just a different expectation. There weren't a lot of 50 year old women who were out there like dominating and doing it in a way that was compassionate and considerate and where they were proud to be women leaders and not that they felt like they had to conform to be, to your point, have that executive presence or be whatever the thing was. And I think it's really interesting that we're very fortunate. I think growing up, coming up in the age that we are, where we get to change our rules a little bit, right? And we get to make it more accessible for other people. We get to make it more get to pull back the curtains a little bit, a little less where's wizard of Oz. So I love that. And you've spent a lot of time being that spicy Latina you are really focused on, especially on women in sports and Latinos in sports as a whole. And so I would love to maybe get from you a little bit about what your take is on the importance, if you will, of cultural sensitivity and building those teams and thinking about how you and your experience and some of the companies that you've worked with who have done this well, or maybe those who haven't done it so well, how have they leveraged that sensitivity to make better teams? Yeah. 

Sara Toussaint: I, oh my gosh, where to start. So as you're asking that question, I think about me being hired for a job at Major League Soccer. And that was like the moment where I did not have a grand plan of what my career would look like. Again, I thought I was going to do policy, law, government, and did none of it. But for law school, I did actually work at a firm that made me say, I'm not going to law school. I'm not going to be a lawyer, but I, going back to this, it it's just so weird. And I think about these people and these decisions that they make, and those are like such huge turning points in our lives. But I was hired, I was applying for a job at Major League Soccer. And on my resume, there was my career at that point I had. So I'm from Chicago. I went to the University of Chicago. That's the institution I had referred to earlier. And it's the only thing in my resume that hinted I had some type of Chicago connection. But the hiring manager had seen, I went to the University of Chicago and he's okay, great school. I'm like, oh, you've heard of it. Cause back when I was in school, nobody really knew what it was. They always confused it with another school. And he's yeah, of course. And then he's are you from Chicago? I said, yes. And he's like, where are you from? I was like, what do you mean where I'm from? Like, why does he want to know this about me specifically? But he was digging in because he wanted to understand. And also I'm trying to think, I don't think anywhere in my resume had that. Maybe I did have a reference to being part of a Latino organization, but otherwise there was no indication. Maybe I had bilingual Spanish and maybe that's it. But nothing in my career really hinted at, me having like Latino insights, and marketing insights on this demographic. And so he's like asking me like, where in Chicago am I from? And I tell him the neighborhood, he's oh, he's exactly who we need. And I was like, what are you talking about? So the neighborhood I grew up in is like 98% Mexican. I myself, I'm not Mexican. And I responded to him by saying, 'cause he's oh, he's you're, he's you're exactly what we need. He's the Mexican market, the Mexican American market. I was like whoa. I was like, I'm not Mexican. I'm Puerto Rican, Palestinian. He's Sarah, he's you grew up in a little village and you grew up to say, he's this audience, he's you're going to be the most Mexican person we have here, and I said, oh, and but at the end of the day, he was right. Based on my, just where I grew up, like who would have thought like my neighborhood would have had such a profound impact on my career. And it did. And so he was hiring me for major league soccer . Obviously they saw the Latino segment as a growth opportunity for them. In addition, the Mexican national team, which plays major league soccer, wants to continue to grow their audience and their fan base in the U S so that's, that's how I got hired. And that was just, I get, I ask people a lot of questions about themselves because I am also looking for that taught me one, I'm nosy, but two, like it taught me that everybody brings something to the table, even if they don't realize it. Yes. There's always something to learn from somebody that is going to enhance my, our lives, their careers, their, whatever their, business outcomes are. If you search for it, if you dig hard enough, and value people, whoever they may be to just value them. They've got something. And just because I may not see it on the surface doesn't mean it's not there. And so I think about that. And I think I may have gone off on a tangent there, but as I'm thinking about the importance of, just identities to like, and how they impact the business, like that was it. So with that knowledge, I was able to work with various brands that want to connect with the segment and say, they put some ideas together and I would say that could work or maybe not go this path. Let's go this path. Or in the language, this is what Mexican Americans will say versus Puerto Ricans or Spaniards or whatever translated. And that's how kind of all those things unfolded. That's how part of my career has unfolded from that moment. And so it's, and it's a huge, huge audience. And the other kind of thing I really took pride in, I really loved the work and I was very proud of it was showing these brands, which initially definitely saw the value of these consumers, but to say, look at, look at the millions of Latinos who are here in the U S think about how much spending power they have and how much that can impact your company. And table go with them on that journey and point them in the right direction was always very rewarding and having them get it right. And these are, for the most part, these are brands who don't have Latino employees making decisions. And I give them credit for even thinking about doing it in the first place and give them credit for listening to me. 

Natasha Nuytten: Yeah, no I absolutely love that. And I'd be curious if you've worked with a lot of big brands, over the course of your career in various aspects, whether it be through, sponsorship or whatever, there's a million ways that you've done that. I'm curious if there are, one or two that you think have done a really good job of not just hijacking the opportunity, but of really embracing it and doing a good job of connecting with that particular audience or consumer on their side. 

Sara Toussaint: Yeah. I worked at Wells Fargo, so that's the one I saw inside. I was in it. It was a bank, but I just saw, and the people who are leading diverse segments, specifically the Latino segment, I could just tell how much they cared about this community of people. And the fact that we tried all types of things through the work I did in terms of, using soccer as like that point of that launching pad for let's try mobile banking in Spanish. Let's try social media in Spanish. Let's try like they were willing to explore and leverage a really cool marketing platform to reach an audience that was going to be receptive to that. Like, all right. Talking about money is not always easy. And fun. And to be able to marry that. So I think Wells Fargo did a pretty good job. So obviously I'm biased, not unbiasedly Home Depot and AT&T are two of the brands that I admire because they have and I'm coming at it mostly from the sports lens, but I've seen them in the entertainment space too. But they've seen the value and they have seen, I think it's almost 20 years that they've been sponsoring programs that are important to Latino community, whether it's on the sports side, entertainment side, scholarship programs. So I feel like those are two brands that have done a really good job and are always looking for a new idea to reach that community and support that community. And I think from a corporate, social responsibility angle and like it's there, but just from a business angle, they get it right. They get it. They see, I don't, I think there's this, there's, it's been, I think, year over year studies that show the Hispanic segment when within the U.S. is something like the seventh largest GDP in the world. And so there's a lot of, it's funny because there's a lot of data to support these business decisions. But that said, there's still very limited budgets being invested into these communities, whether it's on the marketing side or infrastructure side or whatever, all aspects of, at least in the U.S. economy, there's still a lot lacking. But anyway, so those would be my three, Wells Fargo, Home Depot, AT&T. 

Natasha Nuytten: Yeah, those are great. And what I'm interested in is that you were talking about not only just the types of platforms, but the types of services, right? Because, I think of the example, and I'm going to totally forget which country this was in. It was an African country. And they were talking about a banking institution trying to expand their footprint. And the one they had, they worked with, man, I just really wish I could remember who this was. It'll come to me. But they were talking about expanding. Yeah, exactly. I should be Googling. But they were talking about expanding their footprint. And they had one group of folks in their organization like we need to put community banks, like community, local spaces. And then they had someone else who was like, no, we need, just need to have, we need to have just a larger marketing presence so people know who we are. And then they had someone who was local to the country they were working. I want to say it was a Western African country. And they said, no, actually, the way the people you're trying to reach are all in remote areas. And they're on a phone, like there is no way for you to put a community bank in their space. So what you need to do is invest in mobile banking. Because that's how they're going to reach your audience, and so there was just like this massive dump of dollars there. And they were able to expand their business model. But it came from somebody who understood the community, they understood the people they were trying to talk to. And it led to really great business outcomes for them. And I think that sometimes, the conversation around, and I'll use all the words diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging can get taken over. Or sometimes it's used as a euphemism for black and brown which sometimes it does mean those groups of people, but it's not only those groups of people. And so when you have, to your point, someone who's experienced a culture or has lived in and amongst or is identified, identifies as whatever, fill in the blank, there is a different way to solve and innovate, so teams are, they can better solve customer solutions, they can help drive market share, like those things have been proven. And I'm so interested in I'd love to get your take on this in organizations where the business case is evident, and you still have to drag people, to the water, so to speak, to get them to drink. I'm curious if you have any experiences, and of course, not the organizations you've worked for. But like any clients or partners that you've worked with that you're like, they get it on paper, but we really struggled to get them over the line. And what you did to work through that. 

Sara Toussaint: Yeah, no, it definitely, I saw, just as the example you gave about the, the bank, the expanding using rural banking versus, bricks and mortar, community bank like that. That's huge. I think the resistance is sometimes it's, I will say this, sometimes the resistance is, man, the process is going to be tough. And it's gonna take too long. And it's internal bureaucracy that may get in the way. Some of it may just be like, oh, we rather support, we rather sponsor like the NFL, and it's going to get a broader, and I think for, I think to get people to open their eyes, because there was resistance to us going in the soccer direction, because we were cutting other sponsorships, like these other like beloved properties, sports properties. But, there's some grumbling. But the biggest piece was like, we just have to show them if they can just see this they'll get it. And it was like literally inviting them to come to games and say, just look at how many people are here. 

Natasha Nuytten: Yeah. 

Sara Toussaint: At 9am, this game doesn't start till 9pm. Look how many people are here already tailgating. This is a group of folks that you can have their uninvited attention for the next several hours if you wanted to come by and introduce yourselves and just learn about the thing, so I think part of it was like them also seeing it off the paper, I think was probably the biggest piece and the biggest driver to okay, we're gonna put some more money into this. And, oh, actually, you know what, I've got 10 clients I can invite to this thing, right? I think the biggest piece you can put your PowerPoint deck together. And I've had days where I'm like, Oh, look at this beautiful presentation, it's gonna get and it's crickets, there's no movement. And part of it was like, I have to physically invite them. Can hey, I've got extra tickets once you come to the game. This is how we typically will market to the segment. These are the types of things that we can do. That was a big piece. Or other times, I will just do it with very little money, and then be able to show some of the successes with that and then get some more buy-in after something has already happened, right? Because nobody wants to jump in when there is like zero, when nothing is built, right? It's very, it's really tough to get unless you're super connected. It's really tough to get things off the ground without somebody being able to see some tangible outcome or result or even, was it the, what's the venture term? I'm embarrassed. I'm like, I'm terrible at analogies, but like a viable product, right? Yeah, like ready to go. And so anyhow, but once, once we have that, we could say, oh, you weren't excited about this, but we opened up several hundred accounts this day, during a two hour meet and greet. Let's have more. Yeah, let's have more. Yeah. So I think a big piece of it is just having them actually see it because the numbers that people say they want the data, but the data doesn't move them all the time. 

Natasha Nuytten: So I think stories do experience, right? Our emotions, we are social animals, right? Like that happens. And I think I really, what I really appreciate about your point is that sometimes, whether it's right, wrong, whatever, isn't the point, but like sometimes you have to do some of the things that are maybe low-hanging fruit or not low-hanging fruit, but maybe you have to assume the risk, right? To be able to expose somebody to an experience that they then see, touch, feel, taste the thing for themselves and they can understand it. I think I'm thinking now, like of, there are some leaders who have been pretty outspoken over the last few years, really about, hey, diversity is good for our business. And they can be loud about it now because they've had some successes with it, right? But it sometimes takes that that big, those wins that they can then see and evidence into your point, measure, and all those things, which, for some folks who are a little bit softer and like less inclined to lean into the data because they're just like, I just know that this is going to work. It's sometimes we have to win us over, right? And then remind us to measure the thing. I'm putting, as I said, us, I'm putting myself sometimes in that category too but there is something around, empathy, familiarity, right? Like familiarity with something makes it less likely that it's other, right? It becomes something that, that, you know, right? This is going to sound bananas, but when I was growing up, my, my father's Jamaican, my mother's Belgian. And I used to hear people all the time. They'd be like, and I, and this, they didn't, they were not, I recognized that people were coming from a good place. They would say you're not black. And I'm like, actually I actually am. But it was, and again, I know probably people blow up the comments, me saying that is a racist. I'm like, okay, maybe it was, but that wasn't intending to be that way. It was just a recognition that like, I know you, you're familiar to me. And therefore it was destigmatized from something else that they might have had, right? Like they'd never had exposure to. And so I think that there is something even in business around having people step outside of their bubble just a little bit, and have some of those people around. Okay. So one of my favorite things that you do is that you are the co-owner of NC Courage, which is for those who do not know, a very successful national women's soccer league team. By the way, kudos to you all for this year having the most Olympic players represented on your team, like talent level through the roof. Got some kudos. I'm curious, as you've been, as you've been a co-owner in that, you've also been a part of Venture Studio. Is that what you call a studio or just like a venture group underdog? I don't know. 

Sara Toussaint: Yeah, it was an underdog venture team. 

Natasha Nuytten: Underdog Venture Studio. Amazing group of human beings. Like I've not met anyone there that I don't just absolutely have a soft spot in my heart for. 

Sara Toussaint: Oh, good. 

Natasha Nuytten: Yeah, so many good people. And you're now with TMJ. I'm really curious about how you have seen and prioritized inclusion and diversity all throughout different levels of the organization. Have there been some things that you've done as a leader to make sure that those things are taking place? 

Sara Toussaint: Oh, great question. Let's see. I would say with all three of the organizations, which is probably what drew me to them, was they were already doing the work, right? Although we can always do more, right? So I can't say, oh, I did this and did that, because thankfully they are already thinking about that, right? In the women's game, especially women's sports, sometimes it's just inherently political to be asking for equal pay. With the underdog venture team, there was a group of people with various backgrounds, experiences, culture, all of it, that wanted to work with organizations that were mission driven or projects that were mission driven. So that was a draw there. And then with TMJ, it is just, again, back to the women's sports piece, it's 100% focused on women. I think we're the only agency at this level that's 100% women talent. There is, as far as the soccer players, or if they are men, they're either coaches in the women's game, or in one particular, this one player, it's because he's very good, but we represent his sisters, right? So there's a couple exceptions there. But the point, the point being like all three organizations, it's something that is just from the beginning, it was just valued that way, right? So it's not like I have to do a ton of work. But the work I do is just continue to celebrate it and show that there's value there in each one, right? With the women's game, we've seen valuations grow, because that was such an undervalued, untapped, quite frankly, disrespected area of the industry that's now, like on a rocket ship along with a lot of other women's sports like the WNBA and Rivaled. And then Underdog has been growing like crazy. And, one of them, and I'm still an investor there. So I left my day job there, but still want to find ways for us to collaborate together, which is the work that we did, and that's how you and I met through some of those conversations. It's just, these are people who are really, who care about each other, care about, just working in a better place and making working environments better, working with clients who want to see a better world. And, what was really neat about that experience was just the people that I met there. But in particular, one team member who's open about being trans, which is not the first time I've actually worked with a trans person before. There was somebody, my first job out of college 25 years ago was trans and was actually, just transitioning and I had, it was like, oh, okay. But I didn't feel comfortable asking questions, I just didn't want to impose. But then with this Underdog, having someone that I can work with day in and day out on a daily basis and ask them questions and they were open about it and they talked about their experience. And I just thought, how cool are you and how brave of you, you are to like to be open in a really tough society. And then, and I felt so lucky to know this person only to find out, like, a couple of years later in my own family, which I did not know I had somebody who's, who, was like, I'm trans. I was like, wow, I felt better, just personally better equipped to handle that conversation and hopefully be supportive. And anyhow, so I think I went way off topic, but I just think the organizations I'm drawn to just have these it's always people first. It doesn't matter what the title is, what the job is. It's do I like the people that I'm going to be spending all my time with? If so, it's going to be good. 

Natasha Nuytten: Yeah. No, I don't think you went off topic at all. In fact, I'd love to double click on that for a second, because I do think, and I'm curious if you get this too, being that you are a Puerto Rican Palestinian woman, that, and it's a little, it's better now that people, there is a torch that someone bears who is able to navigate different cultural groups. And I say it as, to me, it is sometimes hard, but it's such a gift, right? Because people will ask me questions that they won't ask other people. And I come back so often, I'm like some people I know, they get so frustrated. They're like, that was rude. That was racist. I'm like maybe, but like, how else are they supposed to know? If I'm the first, if I'm the first person they've ever encountered that they feel comfortable asking a question that they shouldn't, and this is where people, it gets a little controversial you shouldn't bear the responsibility of educating others. And there's truth in that. I want to acknowledge we should do a better job collectively of being educated. And if someone is willing to be vulnerable and curious with you, and they trust that you are a safe place to do that, A, kudos on making them, helping them to feel comfortable. And B, I hope that you can separate out those things. This is a banana example, but this was a couple years ago, actually. I live in Omaha, Nebraska, and I went to a wine tasting with a friend of mine. And she is very similar in age to me, but clearly white lady. And she's also a school psychologist, so she's used to kids asking all kinds of weird questions. And we're at this wine tasting, and this older white lady, I'm going to guess, now that I'm 50, I would say she's probably in her early 80s, super spry, but at this little wine tasting. And she walked over to me. We were just sitting, having a drink, and she was like, can I touch your hair? And my friend was mortified. Oh, my God. And I just said, I said, here's the deal. I said, yes, you may. I said, and I just want you to know that I'm really grateful you feel comfortable asking me that, but that's not something you should just ask an average bear. And her response was, oh why? And I was like, would you want someone touching your hair? And she's I guess I never really thought about it that way. And I was like, and again, my friend was like, oh, my God. She was like, I was just going to go off on her. And it's no, because this was an opportunity, A, to educate, but B, also to just be like, I can, I'm glad. Total strangers feel like this is a safe place to ask a question. Now, some people say, no, she's just an entitled old white lady that feels like she can ask a question. And maybe that's true. I don't know her. But, that sort of land between, is, it can be really challenging. I'm really interested in, A, your take on that personally, but B, you've worked] with a lot of folks and a lot of athletes, owners, investors who are there, they're the first in a room or a space. And I'm curious if you help navigate that for those people. 

Sara Toussaint: Yeah. So I, everything you said completely resonates with me. I love when people ask me, like, where are you from? Like, where are you really from? Because they can't, they're not sure. They can't tell. Who I am, where I'm from. What about it, right? They just know I'm maybe not a certain thing, right?

Natasha Nuytten:  Yes. I know she's not this or I think she's not this. 

Sara Toussaint: Or maybe she's one of us, but I can't tell or not, right? So I actually love it. I love them, what is it? The ambiguity, the, is it racial ambiguity? I can't remember the exact term for it. Anyhow, but I actually love it because, there's, I think, in the U.S. there's a lot of people who know what Puerto Ricans are, but don't realize we're U.S. citizens. And it is, I've become a little bit more, I think, radical in the last few years, but it is a territory or colony of the United States. And there's all types of, or all types of laws that prevent Puerto Ricans from having full rights and all these things, right? But then on the Palestinian side, nobody knows what that means. They just, most of the time they've heard the predominantly narrative that we're terrorists, right? And so I welcome the opportunity to be like, I'm not a terrorist, like I love sports and I love performance levels and I like these TV shows and our food is so good, whatever. So I actually, I welcome it. But at the same time, like I do, and I do, and I think that does come from when I brought up compassion being one of the words, I think that's why. I've got other friends who are like, hell no, these entitled jerks. Like they think we need to fit in their spaces and are like really no, I'm not giving them an inch. And I also get that too. 

Natasha Nuytten: Definitely, 

Sara Toussaint: I don't judge them for feeling that way. That's not my approach all the time, but I definitely get it. So yeah, that's my take on it. And to me it does come from a place of wanting people to be educated and know and say, oh, I met somebody who was Palestinian and she was so nice. She was so cool, I hope. Or she was whatever, like a positive interaction, right? 

Natasha Nuytten: Yes, and yeah. So in your work with athletes who are navigating some of this space, I'm curious, like how do you help them do that, right? How do you model that? 

Sara Toussaint: Yeah, it's, and what's I think is nice for them, I don't know if they, I'm not an athlete, never been a pro athlete, so what do I know? But it's, I think they have, they're able to enter spaces where they maybe not, before, but if they weren't an athlete, maybe they wouldn't have access to, right? So I think the biggest thing for me is when I've seen them, I actually, I attended an event a couple of weeks ago and there was an athlete who was there, a black athlete, Olympian, won a gold medal and was off to the side by herself. And I went up to her and I was like, hey, introduce myself. She probably thought I was maybe too much, but, and maybe that's why she stayed away. But it was, why don't you come over here to this group? Let me introduce some people. It's really cool that you're here. How'd you find out about the program? We need more of you guys here, right? So I think it's really important for whether or not they're an athlete or not. It's if you're here, you deserve to be here, right? And you deserve to be seen and heard and asked questions. And it doesn't, at the end of the day, it really shouldn't matter. Like I really, I hate gatekeeping. I hate not sharing, like being open with information or sharing opportunities that, like you said, there's enough to go around. If there's not enough, we can build some more, right? Anyhow, I think that's probably the biggest piece you deserve to be here. Even if you don't know what they're talking about, this is an opportunity for you to learn because why shouldn't you, right? I think it's probably the biggest piece. And I'm sure it is tough for athletes if they've been predominantly focused on their sporting career, now having to retire or change. And that's not easy, number one. Number two, I'm sure there's some, and we have this even without being an athlete, right? Like the, I hate, I actually don't wanna use this word or phrase again, but the whole imposter syndrome and the doubts what am I doing here? If you're here, you belong, right? You found some way, somebody saw potential in you whatever the reason, you're here right now, just like everybody else. So let's learn, let's go. What do you have questions about? If I don't know the answer, here's somebody who might keep that ball rolling.

Natasha Nuytten: I think that's fantastic. Okay, I have three more questions for you. Okay, one is if, as we move forward and we know that a lot is changing in sports, right? And man, just rabbit trail for a second. Like the women, especially in women's soccer and women's basketball, who for the last 15 years, the last 20 years have really done the work, right? Shout out to them and the men who have been allies to them too, because that's important, right? It doesn't happen without all of us. But for them to really dig in and do this work, I'm so excited that they get to start seeing this shift happen, that's amazing. But in thinking about how much has changed and yet how much still needs to change, are there any thoughts that you would leave leaders with, either if they're a sponsor of a company, they just have season tickets and they take their employees or maybe they're in sports or sports adjacent, are there any things that you would recommend for how they can like authentically make contributions to these inclusive initiatives rather than just checking boxes? 

Sara Toussaint: Yeah. Oh, I remember it was terrible, but there was literally, I saw a LinkedIn post today by a friend of mine who works for this nonprofit that is focusing on getting more women, non-binary people, into venture capital. So she's focusing on, cause even, you may have there's so many top women athletes that are actually making really good money, right? But there's a good number, right? And, but how many of them are actually like investing themselves, like investing in other women, or investing in companies, whatever. And so anyhow, she's trying to figure out ways to grow that gap between the men athletes and the women athletes. But gosh, in terms of, and so she had a whole list, which of my brain is like overloaded. It's everything from even getting season tickets to merch, to is there a way, if you can't sponsor a team or a league, can you include talent to come and be part of your marketing programs? If not, they've got great stories around being resilient, overcoming adversity and leadership. Can they come speak to your group, to clients or employees? So I think it's a big deal. I feel like there's so many ways you can, depending on the industry that you're in, you can invest in some of these leagues, teams, clubs. And there's like a whole ecosystem that's out there also. Like it's really hot right now to invest in a team. Really hot. The problem is other people are catching on and it's now becoming limited, right? The options to do that are very limited. So what else can you do? That's something I've actually been thinking about. And I was talking to somebody, she's a former athlete. She played pro soccer. She's now on the investment banking side and trying to find opportunities for investors to invest in the women's space and finding women's properties, finding investors, right? Just trying to match some folks up. And we were talking about, I'm like, that's what's on my mind now, right? So the access, I came, I got real lucky. I came in at a really good time where I could afford to get in. And now it's now it's the billionaires and private equity money that's coming in. Some other stuff. But, and so I was talking about, I'm really, what's the word? I'm not worried, concerned. It's damn, how do we get other people to have access to these types of opportunities? And so I am thinking, what's the greater ecosystem of this industry where people can still invest even if they don't have billions of dollars, sometimes even millions of dollars? Where can they enter? And so that's some areas of opportunities. But I think in terms of, if there's brands that are listening, it's definitely, can you incorporate talent? It'spretty cost-effective. Women tend to, quite frankly, behave better than men. So there's not, it's less of a risk in terms of behavior since there's gonna be more attention in the women's sports space where you're just gonna see increased media around them. And so, it's a smart buy. Whatever it is related to the women's sports space it's still a smart investment where you would see a return, whether it's marketing, whether it's investing, even as a fan, to be able to have access to actually meet these players on top of these other things. So anyhow, I think that's what I have. I'm gonna 

Natasha Nuytten: I'm gonna have to share the article  with you, yeah, that'd be awesome. I would love it. Okay, last two questions. One, is there anything I should have asked you that I haven't, or something you wanna leave us with to think about? 

Sara Toussaint: I kinda brought it up. I think going back to, there's a lot of, I'm like, I can go in so many different directions. I'm focusing just like on women's sports for now. 

Natasha Nuytten: You focus on  whatever you want, Sarah. I got it all day. 

Sara Toussaint: I think, again, it's seeing, maybe it's maybe the, it's what else should we be looking at? And to me, it's like digging deeper than what the shiny hot topic is, right? Because it's gonna last for so long. If you think about it, we knew there was, back in the early 2000s, it was like, the internet, investing there, and then it was like a bubble, and that's moved on. Then it was SaaS, but apps can be used for the iPhone, and then, I'm not the most tech forward person, so I'm probably skipping some like phases, but crypto was so huge, right? And now it's AI, right? And so I feel like that's also gonna pass, right? So I think it's important for people to think about what else in that kind of area within, I just talked about tech, but within the sports space, can people be looking at in terms of future investment? If it's not the team anymore, are there other avenues, whether it's startups focusing on this game, and it could be everything from like new drinks, sports drinks, to media companies, to, agencies, to, whatever new stuff is probably gonna come out, apparel companies. I think there's like a whole world of opportunity that's out there beyond just what's immediately in front of you. 

Natasha Nuytten: Yeah, 

Sara Toussaint: I'd say even if, and I say that from a quote unquote investment standpoint, but even from a career standpoint, there's so many ways to get into the space besides being an athlete, or working for a team or a league, right? You mentioned brands, but there's other ways to get in there. So I think that's probably the biggest piece is to dig a little deeper, whatever it is that you're interested in, or somebody is interested in, no, there's more than what's just on the surface. I feel really strongly about that. 

Natasha Nuytten: Awesome. Yeah. And then lastly, how can listeners be helpful to you? 

Sara Toussaint: Ooh, that's so nice. How can they be helpful? We're in it together. That's so nice. Yeah, I, for me, it's all about getting into women's sports. If you're on the corporate side and you wanna work on, come up with some really cool marketing campaigns, like soccer is gonna be hot starting now through the men's world cup next year. It's gonna take place in the US. The women's world cup's gonna take place in 2027 in Brazil. There's more, there's a really good chance that it's gonna be back in the United States in 2031. There's the Olympics in 2028. Like soccer is not going anywhere and it's only gonna keep growing. So in terms of what people can do, it's to check out TMJ. If there's any athletes that look interesting that could maybe be a part of a marketing campaign. Yeah, so that's where my head's at. It's like, how do I get our talent to be more top of mind for a lot of these brands? I love it. I've already got some ideas, so you'll be hearing from me. You'll be hearing from me.

Natasha Nuytten: Thank you. Yeah thank you, Sarah. This has been a great conversation to learn about women's sports, to learn about your history and how you think about inclusion and diversity in your own experience and couldn't agree more. Like you literally at the top, compassion, right? And like just showing up as yourself and how you lead is so important. That's what Human Side Up is all about. So you nailed it. Yeah. How much I love that name, Human Side Up. I'm like, yes. That's all, that is all Katie Moss, my marketing guru. I'm super lucky. She was like, what about this? I'm like, yep, I'm in. I love it. 

Sara Toussaint: As soon as you hear it, you're like, yeah. It just resonates personally so much, but I'm also thinking yeah, this is like a successful podcast, of course, so that name, everybody's listening to it. 

Natasha Nuytten: Absolutely. That's right. Awesome. All right thank you so much, Sarah. And I appreciate you. We'll look out. So if anybody has questions or wants to reach out to Sarah, please check out the show notes. We'll put her LinkedIn in there. We'll put a link to the company. And if you have questions, you can reach out to me or out to her directly. So thank you. Gracias, shukran. I told you, fiery, right? Joyful, just energetic and compassionate. I love those words that she chose for herself because they are so very true. She is creating her own definition of executive presence, and I'm here for it. Let's be honest. So if there's anything that you'd like to share with us about the episode, insights, or if you want to reach out to us or to Sarah, you can check us out in the show notes or reach out to us directly. But looking forward to seeing you the next time and thanks for listening.