Her Whole Town Turned on Her | Meagan O’Nan

HSU Meagan O'Nan 

Natasha Nuytten: Hello, everyone, and welcome to Human Side Up. My name is Natasha. I am your host and the CEO of Clara. Today I am joined by Meagan O’Nan, who is an award-winning speaker, storytelling coach, and founder of The Unify Experience. Megan has dedicated her career to one of the most challenging and yet essential skills of our time, particularly now, which is turning conflict into connection and transforming our deepest differences into catalysts for growth through difficult conversations. Oh, she has so much to teach us. From her home base in Starkville, Mississippi, Megan has built a remarkable speaking career that began with her own journey of courage, which was started by being outed in college and facing extreme rejection, and then choosing to return to her community to reshape relationships on her own terms. That very pivotal experience of vulnerability and resilience became the foundation for her life's work. Megan is the author of three award-winning books, including Creating Your Heaven on Earth, Courage, Agreeing to Disagree is Not Enough, and her latest, Held and Free. Her work has earned recognition from some pretty incredible voices, including a personal note from Archbishop Desmond Tutu in response to her talk on forgiveness. She's been featured on Forbes.com and NPR and has an incredible TED Talk I encourage you all to listen to on what to do when you disagree with someone that you love. What makes Megan's approach so powerful, in my opinion, is that her belief that true leadership isn't about avoiding our differences, but about confronting them with intention and emotional honesty, and that using them as fuel for creativity and healing is a winning combination. Living as an openly LGBTQ plus leader in a conservative community, she brings both personal authenticity and hard-won wisdom to conversations about bridging divides. Megan, welcome to Human Side Up. I'm excited to dive in with you. 

Meagan O'Nan: Thank you for having me.

Natasha Nuytten: Yes, Megan Onan, thank you for being here. And it's early, and I know that your preferred time is later in the day. So we will be as gracious and as easy as possible on letting things flow. But thank you for being here. Thank you for being willing to share because we do try to dive in and get to the messy part of being human. So right on. Thank you. So for listeners who don't know your story, I don't want to spend all of our time there, but I want them to know you and how you've landed in this world of speaking and teaching others and in organizations how to walk forward and find the two sides of the coin between fear and courage in leadership and in conversations, hard conversations with people. So tell us a little bit about you. 

Meagan O'Nan: Sure. My story begins. I grew up in Mississippi in a family that's conservative Catholic with two brothers. My parents are still married today, 55 years, I think, so very committed to each other. I grew up in a great childhood. I was very supportive in everything, all of my endeavors, other than just being very different as a girl, as a tomboy. Southern culture doesn't really support that as a girl, at least it didn't at the time. I would say it probably still doesn't. But I grew up as an athlete, very confident, very spiritual, very in tune with myself, very responsible, and very in tune with the environment around me. I was very aware of Mississippi culture and its injustices, and it always was something I was passionate about, just equality and injustice in general. I remember being a child and practicing MLK speeches in the shower and reading about Nelson Mandela and everything that was going on in the world or had gone on in the world and just have always known that was such a big part of who I am. So later in my life, in my college years, I was outed by an ex-boyfriend while I was attending Mississippi State University. I was a two-sport athlete at Mississippi State, basketball and softball, and had been looked up to as a leader in a lot of different sectors, not just as an athlete, but as an academic All-American. I was a National Strength and Conditioning All-American. I was head of the Fellowship of Christian Athletes as far as leading female athletes, doing Bible studies every week. And so this was just a very dramatic turning point for me, realizing that I'm gay and everyone finding out became a day from hell, essentially. I was getting phone calls from people from the FCA and all across campus. People were walking up to me and the general consensus and opinion was, or the things I would hear were, Megan, you're disgusting. Don't you know what you're doing is a sin? You make me sick. I was getting hate voicemails, really bad interactions. And finally uncovering that I had been outed and then needing to go to my family's house to tell them before someone else told them, which is what I did. Because of a small town in Mississippi, secrets spread fast. And so I sat my mom down. She wept. And my dad, the first thing he said was, don't you think you're going to go to hell? And then my older brother, the first words out of his mouth were, you should leave Mississippi because you'll be safer somewhere else. And I want to tell you about, this was 20 years ago, 2004, 2005, what it was like then for gay people. I had a friend who was a little bit feminine. He was a guy and he was beaten to death at a McDonald's just for looking gay, sounding gay. And so there was a lot of fear about safety, physical safety and psychological safety. And my brother was aware of that, but I also think he was going to be easier for everybody if I just left. And so after I left my family's house feeling unsupported, I then went to the mentor of mine who was the head of the Fellowship of Christian Athletes, hoping to get some kind of it's going to be okay, Megan, we're going to work through this and got the opposite, quoting Bible verses and telling me I was going to go to hell if I continued in a homosexual lifestyle. So I really left that day being very aware that I was just a label to people and it wasn't a good label in their mind and that I was alone and that I was going to have to find a way forward. And so that day was a huge turning point for the work that I do today in the world. I ended up leaving Mississippi about a year later. I was gone for about six years and I ended up coming back in 2010. And I've been back here 15 years sharing my story and doing the work that I do in the world and helping people bridge the gap of human connection, especially in the divisive world we find ourselves in right now. I feel like my work is more important than ever. And so that experience has propelled me into everything that I do today and helping people connect and understand each other, even when we don't agree. Thank you. 

Natasha Nuytten: I want to start there…Yeah, I, my heart hurts for that experience, for that human that you were at that point in time, having that having those moments, knowing that is sadly not an unfamiliar story for many. And so I appreciate you sharing that. Thank you. And I also know that you've done a lot of work since then in restoring relationships and healing relationships with your family and folks and as to your point, being back in your community and blooming where you're planted in that kind of thing. And so I know a lot has happened since then, which we'll dig into. And I think it's really important that as we're having this conversation around hard conversations, having that context of it not being your choice to have to be thrown into having this conversation is, I think, really important too. And I just want to honor the fact that you took so much ownership in those moments to take care of the people around you and try to protect them. And I know it sounds to me anyway, this may be an assumption on my part. So correct me if I'm wrong, that they also were probably trying to protect you and like reconcile all of this stuff with their love for you, which is really so often right where we land and yeah, so I'd love to unpack that because I think that as a leader in an organization, we have these personal relationships as well as these professional relationships where we have to have these conversations. And while there's, I think, there's a lot of conversation around authenticity and your whole self versus your work self or your private self. There are differences, right? They're all part of who we are, but we certainly show up in places with different pieces of ourselves. And I think that's appropriate. But unpacking that and how to have those conversations, I think there's so much to learn from you, right? Like why should we recreate the wheel if others have done better than us before. So thank you in advance for doing some of that hard work. So thinking about all of that, one of the things I'd like to unpack a little bit would be, coming through that, we often on this podcast anyway, think about what the impact of these experiences are for us. And so I'd love to have you take what you just shared and answer our sort of human side up question, which is as a result of those things, as a result of this amazing childhood and this family and this growing up and then these experiences, what are a couple of things about you as a result of this, some words that you might own about yourself that may or may not be on a resume that you have come to know is true about you and how did you embrace them as true as you've moved forward? 

Meagan O'Nan: Great question. Never been asked that. The first word that comes to me is intentional. I don't take decisions lightly and I'm very intentional about how I show up. And the other word that pops up is honest and just being real. That is the thing that I think that has really saved me in the end. 

Natasha Nuytten: When we think about it, I love both of those intentions and honesty. And I've been thinking a lot about those two things because I think that they don't have to go hand in hand, but I do think they best serve one another when they do. And on purpose is something that's so important. So when, as you were walking through your life, do you think that those two became true for you that you were like, okay, this is the thing I want to wrap my arms around and the way I want to be? 

Meagan O'Nan: I think they've always been who I am. A part of me that's, I believe values such as these, not beliefs. I like to make that distinction because they're two very different things. I believe values are a part of who we are when we come into the world and that a part of our journey is uncovering those and staying true to those. And when we're aligned with those things that are really important to us and are in our life and we use them to make decisions and how we show up in the world, then I think that's where we experience inner peace. And so for me, these have always been super important, which is why being in the closet was so painful, not being honest about who I was. It was actually a huge gift that I was outed because I don't know when I would have been honest about that, but I was definitely suffering. And just that whole uncovering and unraveling that experience is what really pushed me into these values and owning them and really using them to show up in what I do now as a mom, as a wife, as, a person who works with other people on human connection. So I think it's just a constant unraveling those core values that we have, that we come into the world with. It's just our journey to just keep honing in on them and being more true to them, no matter the setting that we're in. 

Natasha Nuytten: Yeah, I love that. Yeah, it's a journey, right? It's constant evolution if we're doing it right. 

Meagan O'Nan: No doubt. Yeah, you think you're doing great and then the next day you have a new challenge and you're like, oh, yeah, maybe not, maybe not. 

Natasha Nuytten: Yes. And for me, I find that, the universe, like I think I've nailed it oh, I've got that. Yeah. And then the universe is actually, let's practice that one again constantly being corrected. No doubt. Okay, let's talk a little bit about that word connection, because I think it means a lot of different things to a lot of people. And I would love for us to ground in a definition of that for our conversation today so that we really know what you're talking about when you talk about connection in your work, because it's so pivotal and core to what you do and how you work with leaders and organizations for people to improve. So can you define that for me a little bit? 

Meagan O'Nan: Sure. So for me, human connection is going beyond the surface, beyond our fears, beyond our beliefs, and really getting to know each other for the values that we hold. I feel like all too often we focus on opinions and where someone stands politically or where someone stands on particular issues, and we forget that at the end of the day, we are all human beings and we're all experiencing the same fears and we all are wanting the same things out of life. And so when I talk about connection, I talk about that beyond-surface level of seeing another person as a human being and not as the labels they present. 

Natasha Nuytten: Yeah, plus one. I completely agree with you. And what I'm trying to unravel and love to get your thoughts on is, that's a very personal thing, right? And so what I'd like to talk a little bit about with you is what portion of that or where is business and or leadership responsible for something that feels so personal? Yeah, maybe I just put a period there, the question mark there, like without getting too far into it. So where is that line, like how much of that very intimate, very personal sort of piece should business or leadership be responsible for? And maybe those are two different things. I don't know. I'd ask you. 

Meagan O'Nan: When I think about leadership and I think about working with managers or executives, the first thing that I really focus on is that person's presence. How are they showing up? Are they being true to themselves? And I think as leaders, we need to ask ourselves that. Are we aligned? Are we showing up with an open presence and a sense of acceptance for our teams? And that's really the thing and the catalyst that sets the space up for people to be who they are in their values. And I don't think if a leader is really showing up with presence and intentionality and being an example, a true example to their team, then I think it's a much easier feat to have those doors open and those conversations happen naturally. But if not, some things that leaders can do is to create a space for those conversations to happen, to be intentional about having time in the schedule for teams to sit and talk about life. And it doesn't have to be for long. It doesn't have to be, every week. But just knowing that's an important part of the culture that people are seen and heard for who they are, just creating the space for that sometimes is enough. And when we're having those, if we go to that next level and we're having those conversations, realizing that we don't have to talk about our beliefs. We don't have to talk about our opinions. We just have to talk about who we are beneath the surface and recognize that our fears and our values are so similar and that's where we can truly connect as human beings. We do not have to go into our stories and full vulnerabilities and still be very aligned and true to who we are in the workplace. 

Natasha Nuytten: Yeah, I think that's really smart because there is that gray space between how I show up and how I do work versus that's a different ecosystem of humans that I'm engaged with like at home or in my personal life. I've selected the people, by and large, who are in my world. There may be some exceptions, whereas at work, we don't have that opportunity to maybe make those selections as much. And so I think just the value and it still sometimes surprises me that we have to and I think it happens less and less, but it still surprises me sometimes that we still have to make the business case for inclusion in leadership, whereas I think, the numbers show us if we're just being really practical about the thing, like businesses who are more inclusive and organizations who are more diverse and more accepting of people's backgrounds and experience and create a more psychologically safe place for people to be perform better, right? Yet we still sometimes have to have that conversation about making the case. I'd be curious to get really practical about how we can do that, like what are some of the maybe mistakes we see organizations make in attempting to do this or what are some of the things that we see that you've seen be really successful in helping organizations take some steps toward being more inclusive and more connected with their teams. 

Meagan O'Nan: What I've seen over the years is this growing DEI space where now we have, I don't know if this is going to be a popular opinion, but where we have all of these subgroups forming. So you have your LGBTQ group, you have a women's group, and it's great. Representation absolutely matters. It matters in my life. But I think what has happened over the years is they've become these very safe silos for people to then start to see their coworkers as a separate part of the organization, not meaning to, obviously, because I think we all want that inclusive feeling, but it's our instinct as human beings to be drawn to groups that are like-minded because we feel safe there. And so sometimes I feel like having all of these subgroups can really harm an organization who's trying really hard to be inclusive because there's just too much separation happening. And I've seen it time and time again with big organizations that have really tried. Sometimes it just doesn't really work all that well and that there needs to be a bigger sense of the entire organization coming together and not in these silos that are actually making things harder for people to have these harder conversations because that space isn't being set. And so while there's intentionality in having safe spaces, overall, that safe space isn't happening totally. So I think that's been one thing as I've seen things kind of unravel in the last few years and things really shift and change, that there's a way to do this without having to separate everyone into their like-minded groups where they feel the most safe. And so that's basically what my work has been, is helping make that transition. And I think it can be a very positive thing, but it's like getting out of that mindset that we need to separate to feel included. 

Natasha Nuytten: I love that you just went there, Megan, because it is, to your point, it may not necessarily be a popular sentiment in certain circles, especially those folks who work in DEIB or those types of things and because we have to hold disparate things is also true. There's a lot of truth in what you said in that it's wonderful to have access and opportunity to begin with folks who are like us and knowing we're not alone in an organization. And there is a risk that then we become, to use the word you siloed, that we don't necessarily work on the connective tissue between those little nodes within the organization and so much of our energy stops there. So it's harder to do it right, to be able to have those groups where people do feel connected and they are connected to the other women or queer folk or African-American, like whatever, groups in their organization and to be aligned to the organization as a whole. So I think there's a balance. That's the challenge. 

Meagan O'Nan: You can have those things, but the emphasis can't be on only that. 

Natasha Nuytten: Yeah, there's definitely a space and then work out, and maybe there are things, like there are specific things that are unique to being a woman in an organization or whatever, however you identify. And yet, if we don't then tie that back to the role that we play in the larger organization, there's a miss there. So I really think that's a very valuable thing that you pointed out is a common mistake. And I think it is, as doing the hard work around that, it leads me to something that I've heard you say in a few interviews and probably have written about too, is that, agreeing to disagree doesn't always cut the mustard, right? That doesn't actually, it feels like when we think about having hard conversations, agreeing to disagree is not having the hard conversation. It's not doing the work. It's saying, OK, you sit over there, I'll sit over here. And it goes to that notion you were just talking about how these groups can sometimes contribute to that disconnection rather than connection. I'd love to hear your take a little bit on how unresolved conflict within teams can masquerade as cultural differences or sort of personality clashes. And what are some tips that leaders can use to help overcome that and bring folks together? 

Meagan O'Nan: I'll start where this kind of originated after I moved back to Mississippi in 2010. And what I heard from other people who were trying to be accepting was, Megan, I love you, but I disagree with your lifestyle. And I remember it always just stinging, like there was this hurt that, no, you're not accepting me fully. You're not seeing me fully because there's no need to say that. What point does it serve other than me feeling hurt by it? And so I was always very curious about why does everyone need to say this to me? And I actually wrote a book on this topic. And then my TED Talk is called What to Do When You Disagree with Someone You Love that I gave this year. So I'm very passionate. Which is wonderful. Oh, thank you. I'm very passionate about this topic. And living where I live, where I am completely different than everyone else. I'm not Christian. I'm very spiritual. I'm an openly gay woman with a daughter. And we live very openly about who we are. And so in most rooms that I walk in, I'm the one that stands out because I'm the one that makes people uncomfortable. And so that's the source of where this comes from, is just continuously being in a place where this challenges me, this whole idea, this whole concept, and trying to get beneath the surface with other people, even when they don't necessarily want that. And so these are learnings that I've had in the last 15 years of being back here and just being very passionate about figuring it out, like finding a way through and trying to really connect with people so that I can still see them. And maybe it'll open a crack so they can see me too. And so when I talk about agreeing to disagree, like you said, it's a surface level agreement that we're making. We're not going beyond the surface and seeing the other person as the human being that they are. What we're seeing is the belief or the opinion they have or the label that you have around that belief or opinion. Because you may believe something and the person next to you may believe the exact same thing. But depending on where you're from and how you grew up, that belief is going to feel very different to each of you. And so if we're not digging a little bit deeper beyond the belief or the opinion to our values and our fears, I know I keep saying that, then we're not really moving forward in growing as a human being, first of all, and giving ourselves the opportunity for our hearts to expand. And we're not giving the other person the same opportunity to see us. So it's an equal part relationship that we all have to agree to meet somewhere beyond agreeing to disagree. And in organizations, I know that's a tall mountain to climb because we're busy and we have plans. We have things to get done, and we have goals. And this goes back to my original comment of creating that space, allowing your teams to have these conversations facilitated so that we can go beyond agreeing to disagree and not just see each other as labels. Because that's where the breakdown really starts. As soon as you see someone as a label of any kind, then that's where we get stuck. And so being able to go beyond that surface is really important. 

Natasha Nuytten: So as a leader, I think one of the things that I encounter with some of my colleagues is there's a little bit of a, I have to do that too on top of the 97 other things that I'm responsible for. So if we were going to be really practical for someone who is feeling a little bit like, I know this is important and I want to do it, how do we get them past, I want to, right? Like I want to lose five more pounds or I want to run a marathon is one thing. How do we get past the, I want to? I want to know how. Are there like, are there maybe two or three things that you've seen be successful in like a practical, this is one way that you can do that without having to feel like you have to upend the entire leadership cart and start all over. What are some really practical things that a person could start to implement to begin making some really pivotal changes right away? 

Meagan O'Nan: One thing is to just set it as a ground rule from the very get-go, like this is who we are as a culture. Make it very known to your team members that this is who we are and this is what we stand for and this is really important to us. And this is how we're going to function. Automatically that makes people feel a little bit safer. And it just, it sets the tone for what, and I think most organizations are pretty good about this, but be very clear about that. And not just once when you're hired, continue to make clear that this is what we stand for and this is who we are. So you'll go through your training. Most people go through their training. They understand inclusivity. DEI is really important. But once you get into the organization and you start dealing with people who are so different from you, you don't know how to function. Sometimes we get so caught up in just the goals and the busyness that we forget that's the intentionality of the organization. So continuing to make that known, I think is really important. And it's not a hard thing to do, right? Like we can continue to say as leaders, this is really important to us. Everyone needs to be seen and heard and feel safe. And just continue to make that a part of the conversation and not just as you're entering an organization or when conflict comes up. So that's something that I think people, leaders can do and continue to communicate and just be very intentional about making sure people know this is where we stand. The other thing I've seen work pretty well is organizations who allow, once a month for an employee or a couple of employees to stand up and just tell their stories. This is where I'm from. This is who I am. And just allowing people to get to know people beyond work. And it's a fun team building thing to do. It's not that hard to set up for 30 minutes where people can share their story. I've seen that work really well across all differences and people love it. People love to hear other people's stories. They'd love to see each other in each other's stories. And it's just a quick and simple thing that you just create a little bit of time for. And if people really want to dig deep and have a little bit more conversation, always bring in an outside facilitator or an outside speaker to help you create those conversations. And it doesn't have to be, that often just having that presence and that outside perspective, I think is always so helpful in facilitating conversations that are a little bit harder. 

Natasha Nuytten: Yeah. So one of the things that comes to mind for me, actually there are two. One is having a framework around which hard conversations can happen. Because I think if I'm looking at this from my own experience, in our organization, we use the trust triangle, Francis Frye and Ann Morris. Great, if you're unfamiliar, and I believe you are, but if anyone listening is unfamiliar, check it out, I would highly recommend it. But the reason why we use it, and you can use any framework, but it gives a shared language for, to your point, hey, it's one thing to say, this is who we are as an organization. It's another thing to execute on that, right? We've all worked in organizations where it's something written on the wall that doesn't really mean anything. So having that framework around which people can ask those questions or talk about those, I think is really helpful. And then another thing that comes up for me is, sometimes we're gonna get it wrong, right? This is who we are as an organization. This does matter to us. And we're not always gonna get it right. So if we're not, let us know, right? Let's have that hard conversation so that we can continue to get better because it does take practice, right? 

Meagan O'Nan: We don't know how to do this with each other, right? And different people push different buttons and challenge us in different ways. So yeah, it's something that matters. 

Natasha Nuytten: Definitely. So when we think about the fact that hard conversations are hard, I would be curious to just get the role that you see self-awareness playing when someone is trying to be more inclusive as a leader. And then how do you, in your work, help leaders begin to walk that path, right? Of being more self-aware around how they show up. Are there ways that, if someone is not particularly self-aware by nature, how do they begin to develop or exercise that muscle so that they can be more responsive and more present and more inclusive as a leader? 

Meagan O'Nan: Self-care. Helping people realize how important it is to take that time for yourself. And again, I know this is not an answer that leaders like to hear because we are very consumed by our roles and what we play in our organization and our society is not super supportive of the idea of taking that mental health time. I think we're getting better. I think we're aware that's happening. But when I talk to leaders who are consumed and overwhelmed and struggling, the one thing that's always missing is just that care of self. How can we make decisions from an aligned place if we're not in tune with where we are? If we're not accepting where we are in our own life and being in touch with the leader we want to be, I don't think it's possible. I think you can probably get away with it for a little while, but it'll catch up. And again, not a popular opinion, but I've seen it in my own life and my life is a good example of when I'm not taking good care and I'm not staying in touch. Everything is just so much harder and I can't see as clearly. And I don't make decisions, I make decisions out of fear instead of out of knowing if that makes sense. So that's always the first place I start. 

Natasha Nuytten: Yeah, that is very telling, that's like a, that's the tell, right? In leadership, I think you absolutely nailed it when you start making decisions out of fear versus knowing there is a misalignment somewhere. And it's when, and it's the most, that's the most harmful as a leader because A, we're making bad business decisions, but B, we're making bad people decisions. And typically, it's that fear of failing or not being enough, right? It's all the human stuff. Exactly. That makes us afraid. I really appreciate that. And something that I remember from one of your talks is that you led with the question, and I believe this was in conversation with your mom, and it laid the foundation for the work you were doing coming after is, rather than starting with your own feelings, you started with, what were you afraid of in that moment? And to me, that's just a really powerful question for, especially for a leader, and no joke, as I was listening to that, even this morning, something came up for me where I found myself reacting to this thing that, to an email that we received where something had gone sideways, like it's business, nothing's perfect, right? Something's always going to go sideways. And it did, and my reaction was not that great. And it wasn't to anyone. It was just in my own head. It was very early this morning. Not that I have not reacted poorly to others. I certainly have. We all do. Yeah, we all do. But in this particular one, I was like, in the moment, and I was preparing for this conversation. And so I actually just paused and was like, what are you what are you afraid of? What did that email just trigger for you? And it was 30 seconds of reflection. So it didn't take a ton of time and it didn't, derail anything. But that 30 seconds in identifying this is triggering just a bigger concern around failure in a particular area that is keeping me up at night. And this was the response to, allowed me to take two steps back and say, okay, how else can we solve or address the thing? And I bring that example up because when you talk about self-care, I think that as leaders, we often think that means I need to take a vacation or I need to get a therapist or I need, all these things that feel like big commitments. But the reality is like, it can literally be as simple as a 30 second moment of reflection and allow myself to feel the feeling and then identify what it is rather than just having it and shoving it down or trying to stop it from coursing its way through my body, which is biology. It's going to do that anyway, right? It's just going to come out of my ear instead of coming out somewhere else. So I really appreciate that. And I think it doesn't have to be a bubble bath once a week if that's your jam. It can be something as small as just 30 seconds to take a breath. Accepting where you are. 

Meagan O'Nan: Yes. Takingthat moment and acknowledging that we are either operating, I'm really glad you brought this up because it is very practical, just taking that moment to acknowledge where we are and that most of the time we're operating from fear of not being seen or failing or being rejected or, anytime we're triggered, there's a fear popping up from a past experience or a trauma. And if you do like you did and just take that 30 seconds and say, this is really what fear is about, then you can start rerouting and looking for other solutions. So yeah, we're either operating from fear or we're operating from our values. And which one do you want to operate from? And so I agree that taking that moment to get back in touch with what's really important can go a really long way because we don't take the time to say this really sucks, and I hate that this happened and it's bringing up this fear in me, but we got to go another way. 

Natasha Nuytten: Yeah. I love that you added the second part because sometimes we do the moment that really sucks, but we don't unpack it. Like we don't say it sucks for this reason. Yeah. Or like I'm feeling this way about the thing. And I think that's the important second step that your work pushes us to do is to identify that. And we're not great at that. We're not great at identifying what our feelings are or articulating them, labeling them even. This is a good place for labels. So I'm curious. I would love to get your take on, there's this difference between doing better. And repairing harm. And I'd love to spend just a couple of minutes talking about this because there are often organizations that are wanting to do better. A leader is wanting to do better. And yet sometimes there's this relationship between if we're starting from scratch. It's much easier to do better than we did the last time. But if we're in an organization where we've been a leader for a while and we haven't done it well, how do you do? There's a real risk and a lot of fear around acknowledging I might need to do some repair work here before I can. It's like it's putting the cart before the horse. I want to get better, but to get better, I also need to be able to do this repair work because I may not be taken seriously or I might be doing all of these things and it's going to backfire because I haven't done the repair work that I need to do. So can you talk a little bit about how a leader might need to take a step or two back and what that practically looks like for them before they can then take those steps forward. I think there are a lot of ways to go about it. 

Meagan O'Nan: The way I would choose if I were in a position like this is to just be really real and really honest and really vulnerable with whoever I need to be vulnerable with. When things are conflicted and complex, I feel like the best way through is to just be as real as possible about the situation with everyone involved. Nine times out of ten, at least what I've seen in my experience, having and being willing to have those hard conversations from a place of true authenticity and vulnerability always moves the needle. And if it doesn't move the needle, maybe it's not the right place for you. I've been in some pretty tense situations personally and professionally, have faced a lot of conflict, and I've seen a lot of leaders be in similar positions like this. And not a popular opinion once again, but I operate very differently just based on my experiences that approaching these situations with vulnerability and a call for teamwork and a call for people to open their hearts and open the doors, I feel like sometimes it's the only way to having any door open so that there can be greater clarity on the other side. So I know that may sound like a little bit esoteric, but to me, we're dealing with human beings here. I feel like when we're in those situations, if our hearts are not being opened, and they are, this is research-based, they're open by human emotion, and being open and vulnerable, if we're not doing that, then we don't really have a starting place.

Natasha Nuytten: Yeah, you're asking people to do hard stuff. I am. 

Meagan O'Nan: And I would not say this if I hadn't done it myself. 

Natasha Nuytten: Yeah.

Meagan O'Nan: And seen its rewards. 

Natasha Nuytten: That's the thing, and I feel like, there are, there's so much happening. And again, I go back to the, it's not an excuse, it is a reality that leaders have a lot on their plates, right? And they are typically in that position because they've been able to, I call it keeping the peas from falling off the plate, right? Yeah. They're able to do that to a degree often that is different than other folks. And so they end up in these positions. And the challenge that comes with that, it's a strength and like most things, they have two sides, is that you prioritize things, right? And you try and strive for efficiency, so that you can do as many of the things as possible, as well as possible to drive outcomes while keeping all the peas on the plate. And so what you're asking people to do is hard. Yes. And it isn't, on the front end, it isn't efficient, right? It is, you have to, it's like completely inefficient in some regards to start. But the reality is that on the backside of it, the outcomes are so much better. But it's like you have to make it a priority. You have to do that work on the front end for things to be better on the backside. And it is a hard decision to make. Yeah, it really is. And some folks don't, right? Absolutely. And maybe now is not the right time for them. And that means it's going to be harder for longer. And yet it is a choice that has to be made. And so you know you're asking us to do hard things. I'm just acknowledging again. 

Meagan O'Nan: And I want to give you a real world example too. Like I was working with a local Toyota plant when Toyota started changing its policies. And each plant is its own culture, right? Toyota has its overall culture and then each plant is very different. And the plant here in Mississippi has worked very hard on being as inclusive as possible for all people. And I've been a part of a lot of that journey. But what I saw them do that I was so proud of was when the overall organization said, hey, these are the policies we're going to change and this is how DEI is going to look. And everyone in the plant was in a ray and confused and didn't know what to do from the top to the bottom. And I, they consulted me and said, hey, how should we handle this? And I said, you have to talk about your fears. What are you afraid of? What are you afraid of? And just be honest with each other and have this hard conversation and I promise you it's going to be okay. And they did the work and they had the hard conversation all the way from the top all the way to the bottom. All of the people who represented all of the groups, they all came together and had a hard conversation and they're finding their way. It doesn't look anything like how it used to be, but they took that moment and said, hey, this is more important that we have this human to human interaction and be real with each other. And it's the only way, it's the only way we can move forward and everyone feels a part of it. So I was really proud of them for representing that truth and diving in and being willing.

Natasha Nuytten: I'm really encouraged by that, right? Because sometimes too, we make excuses at larger organizations that it's this massive organization and we have, and even by larger, we have 250 people. We don't have 10 people to have this conversation. We have 250 or we have 2000 or we have 40,000 employees. How do we do this? And so it's very encouraging, right? It's, you start in one place and it just has to be one human at a time, right? And again, that hard work that takes a little while to do. But it's very encouraging. I'm actually already thinking about a conversation that I need to have later today and reframing, the, my tendencies to, I know that I do this as a leader. It's like when someone asks me a question, my brain works in such a way that I'm like, here are the 47 things I'm thinking about as you're bringing this to me. And I answer very factually. And in this instance that this conversation I'm thinking about, all of those things are still true. And we talk a lot about those, but what is, I think will be different as well, as I'm walking into this is just saying, you already know these pieces, right? What you don't know, what I haven't talked about is here's my, not my concern, right? Because that feels, that's something that I do, but it feels a little bit, there's a little bit of a disconnect, right? Like when you're talking about a concern, it's almost like you're a little, your emotions are removed from the thing that vulnerability is removed from it. But, here's my fear. And to just call it a fear versus a concern, even like that language is different.

Meagan O'Nan:  It's so different because we can all relate to it. When you hear concern, you hear judgment. And when you hear fear, you hear human beings just being real. They're very different energies. Even, my, my wife was struggling with her assistant in the last few weeks , what do I do? What should I do? I'm like to be real, just be honest, just open that door. And everything has shifted since that conversation and their dynamic, everything. And it's going great. So it's just, it's those little moments and they don't have to last an hour. It can be so fast. Just change the energy, make it, I've got a friend in the HR field, his name is Paul and his slogan is human beings first. And if we approach it from that, including ourselves as leaders, we're humans too. Yeah. And that's what serves everyone best in the end. Yeah. And the other person may not rise to the occasion and that's okay. At least you've set the stage. Not everyone's going to fit into that culture and that's okay. 

Natasha Nuytten: Yes.Yeah. It's something small. I don't even know if you noticed that you even noticed it, but like just the it didn't occur to me that using the word concern conveys judgment. Like I don't, self-awareness, like a light bulb just went off over my head. So just FYI, that even me thinking about Oh I knew it was a little bit removed from emotion, but I wasn't even associating that other, like that other layer of there being that criticism. So yeah, you've just opened up some things for me, Megan. So my afternoon is going to look different than I hope it looks different than I anticipated. Yeah. This is awesome. This has been great. And I know you, you also talk a lot about storytelling and we didn't get to that, but I appreciate that there is this, the humanity of the thing is so evident and so obvious and what you're asking us to do. And while it's very simple, it is not easy. Agreed. And I'm just, I'm so grateful that you're doing the work to help us do the work. So thank you for that. I have two more questions for you before we go. One is there something that I should have asked you about that I didn't or something you want to leave us with? 

Meagan O'Nan: I think just a reminder, and this is for me too, because we're all challenged all the time in human connection. It's just, remember that we all have that courage. We all have the courage to say the thing in the tough moment. And when you activate that muscle, that courageous muscle, it's easier next time because you will see that the result in being vulnerable and being real and being authentic is worth it. Because like I said, nine times out of 10, there's going to be a response that is incredible, that will move you and make you think about it differently. So just like that moment of courage is worth it. And we all have that inside of ourselves. 

Natasha Nuytten: Yeah, I love it. It's that practice, stretching that muscle a little bit. It's awesome. And then, lastly, like, how can our people, our listeners be helpful to you? You've been very helpful to us. So how can we be helpful back? Watch my TED Talk. 

Meagan O'Nan: Yeah, okay, great. YouTube, what to do when you disagree with someone you love. Yeah, my website hosts all of my work, meganonand.com. And yeah, just write in if you have questions or if I can be helpful and I'm here to serve. 

Natasha Nuytten: Awesome. We will link that to your website and to those talks in the show notes. So thank you for that. And thanks for making time this morning. Thank you. 

Meagan O'Nan: I really enjoyed our conversation. 

Natasha Nuytten: Likewise. Thank you very much. 

Natasha Nuytten: Calm waters run deep, don't they? Megan's energy is so smooth and so calming. I should have asked if that comes from her genetics or from years of practice. But at the end of the day, what really resonated most deeply for me was that she constantly kept coming back to intentionality and honesty. And it's so simple. And at times during that conversation, I'm sure you heard, I really wanted to press for an actionable item. I'm such a doer. What can I do? What can I do? But the reality is that what you hear in a hard conversation, to hear it, you have to be, not do. When you choose to be an intentional and honest person in a hard conversation that makes all the difference. So thank you, Megan. If you're interested in connecting with her, please check the show notes. We'll have her contact information below. I'd love for you to support what she's doing and to reach out to her if you have any questions or would like to talk with her. And in the meantime, I look forward to seeing you next time. And until then, keep the Human Side Up.