What 42 Years in Baseball Taught Me About Building Teams That Win | Kenneth Williams

Natasha Nuytten: All right honey, welcome to Human Side Up. This is technically our podcast because you and I get the privilege of working together and spending time on Clara. And this has been such an adventure, and I'm really excited to have this conversation with you. So thank you for making time, even though it's early. You are welcome to pause for coffee if we need to get more. But I'm excited to chat with you, so thanks for making the time. 

Ken Williams: No, thanks for having me. I look forward to the questions you're going to ask because they could go a number of ways since this journey has taken us a number of ways, a number of directions. And you've provided me with no prep, which oftentimes is better for me, but I'm a little out of practice. I've been in the public eye, per se, since I was 18 years old, or maybe even before that. And now, 42 years later, almost 43 years later, this is my first interview or podcast or conversation in a long time, in a long time. And that was purposeful because I never liked to do... That was a side of me in my former job that I never embraced. And I've always been a little bit of an introvert and a lone soldier. And to have to do that, I had to become someone else often. But this is different. This is more like a friendly conversation, so look forward to it. 

Natasha Nuytten: Good. I promise to go easy on you. I appreciate you re-entering this world with me, just working with you. I do know that's been something you've been grateful to have a break from for the last year or so, so I appreciate that. We are going to talk a little bit about your career, and I think one of the things that I have seen, not only in my conversations with others, but firsthand, is that you are an incredible leader. And it's been a privilege for me to be able to watch and learn and benefit from your years of experience. So those are some of the things I want to talk about with you today, in addition to what an incredible life journey that you've had. And your passion has come not only... Not only do you have it, but you come from such a passionate family of people who care about things and who get shit done. And I really appreciate that about you. So I'm excited to dig into some of those things. But before we do, we have a question that we ask everyone on the podcast, and I would like to start there, if you don't mind. And that question is, if there were one or two things, two words that you would describe yourself as that we might not see on a CV or resume, what would they be? And how have you come to embrace them about yourself as true? 

Ken Williams: As I try to get you back on screen again, I've lost you. It's one or two things on a resume that people that you may not see. That's one of the things that we have aspired to in creating what we've created is to tap into that for people, right? And to draw that out so that you see the complete person and what they have to offer. I have not. It's interesting that you ask that question out of the gate, because I have not thought about that with regards to myself. What are those things on the peripheral that one brings to the table? I think I've been around a lot of smart people. I've made it a point to hire people that I thought were smarter than me. And, oftentimes I found myself maybe not the smartest person in the room, but the most logical and the most structured. The most disciplined in creating a course of action plan and acting on it in a very strategic, focused way. So now how does that, where did that come from? How did that happen? How did I develop those things? Interestingly enough, I got to go back to childhood. I was that kid that was so fearful of speaking in front of the class that I told all of my teachers, I'm not doing it. And I sat in my chair, terrified. So I took the app. Unfortunately, I got A's and everything else. I ended up doing pretty well in school. But that particular trait or flaw has lasted a lifetime. And even as the general manager of the White Sox, when I got that position, I actually turned it down the first time it was offered to me or mentioned as a possibility to me because I didn't want a public role. I just wanted to do my job. I was running the minor league system for the White Sox. I just wanted to do my job in that particular area. And, the funny part about that is. And I had become someone else to get through all those interviews, all those times where I had to stand up and not lead the group that was more comfortable, leave my coaches, my managers, the players that was my environment. But you put a camera in front or a crowd of people in front. That was a different story for me. Sometimes you have to challenge yourself and get outside your own comfort zones to tap into things you didn't even know you had. And I think that a lot of people that we are now encountering really haven't thought about the other things they bring to the table. Let's take, for instance, the person that didn't go to college. But started their own business and forever, for whatever reason, they're now back in the marketplace. That person has skills in accounting, marketing, sales, leadership, all the different things that you need to actually embark on that kind of endeavor and starting your business. So where does that where do they get credit for that? Where do you account for that in the traditional resume? The answer is you really don't. It's mentioned, but not all those skills are factored into the skill set that a particular employer may be looking for. So one of the things that I'm really proud of is that we were able to, with your leadership, we were able to bring that part of what we do to life. 

Natasha Nuytten: All right, thank you. So we've got logic  and we've got. There's a little bit of. Working at the edge like of being uncomfortable, being OK, being uncomfortable, and I actually—

Ken Williams: —nobody's you're not going to achieve anything great in life if you don't put yourself into an uncomfortable situation and get through it, push through it and come out on the other side. And sometimes you need to fall on your ass to understand. And that was for a long time. I'm not sure I put enough focus and value on it and it wasn't until I did where we put together a championship team and won the World Series where I started to focus on some people that fell on their ass, got up. And still, continue to grind and push forward. So a lot of people take a setback as a negative in their life, and they're so busy looking down at the floor in their feet. The whole war was me that they haven't looked up to see that opportunity pass right by them. 

Natasha Nuytten: Yeah, 

Ken Williams: That next opportunity. When I try to talk to, younger people about, such things, it's you know, there is a value to being knocked on your ass and then in pulling yourself up and still, making a way for yourself.

Natasha Nuytten: Yeah, I think there's a lot of value in that, Kenny. I think, one of the things where we, when we first met one another, one of the places where we aligned the most, and I also got this out of Zoraida, your other half and partner in this, is that opportunity and just keep trying just keep going, right? It might not be perfect and it might not be exactly what you were expecting. But as you keep moving forward and sometimes forward looks sideways or it might even feel like it's backwards, right? But on the other side of that is that growth, right? And for a long time, people would ask me what is your, there's this language now, people say, what is your superpower? And I'm like, I don't know if it's a superpower, but I'm comfortable being uncomfortable, right? I believe I will figure it out. And having that sort of self-efficacy is something that I know that we all share because even, as one of the core values of our company, everything is figureoutable. There is a way to get through it and to figure it out. And so I know that's not just something that you say, but definitely something that you've embraced. And it's a place where we really readily align. So in thinking about, you've done something, you've had an incredible career in sports and, longest tenured African-American executive in baseball. There's a, you've done some stuff, right? You've seen some things, you've accomplished a ton, as you just mentioned, a World Series. I would love to maybe take this back a little bit to the Bay Area and a young Kenny deciding you had a couple of paths. You had a couple of opportunities coming out of that life and you were surrounded by people who were encouraging you and really exemplifying them, there is no opportunity to opt out. You can't opt out. You have to do something. You have to be engaged and take a stance and be involved. And I would love to just hear a little bit from you about that because it's been so critical to your success in your overall career, all the things you've done, even outside of baseball. 

Ken Williams: I've been asked that question a lot in my career life and I typically answer it cause it's, and I'm setting the stage for this because the answer has evolved. And I attributed much of the focus and the directions that I was guided in by my father, my mother, my stepmother, more than my biological mother, who she will tell you in a minute, she didn't miss a step. So I, it's even uncomfortable saying that word. She's my mother, and really, I think saved my life because she's the one that my mother was, my biological mother was one of the first Black Panther members, in Oakland, California. And, started out as a community organization, as everyone knows. And because of some government influences evolved into some other things and was seen by the public as a threat to society at large. Really was just an organization trying to help their own, in their own communities and was forced to do some things maybe on the other side in defense of that. There was that and, yes, I was taken through the Panther headquarters where Huey Newton and Angela Davis and Eldridge Cleaver and all of them were. But shortly after that, in my early childhood, my stepmother told my father, if you don't, because of some other things that were going on in the household, if you don't go get your son, you're not the man. I thought you were. And my father stepped up, went, got me and took me to San Jose. He was running track with a group called Speed City in San Jose. It sounds like a state right there. And that included John Carlos and Tommy Smith and Curt Clayton, all the Olympians. And the fast forwarding to fast forward to the 1968 Olympics. You may recognize those names as John and Tommy stood on the podium and raised their black gloves and fists in protest of, and a sign of unity for the black community. They were blackballed, and couldn't get jobs on the other side of that. And it really is a trap for people. Now they are revered for taking that stance, but so many years went by where they struggled in life because of that and family because of that stance. Those discussions on equity and fairness and all the things that we're now trying to fight for and that are at issue with this movement to delegitimize DEI efforts across the country purposefully do that purposefully say, we don't want equity. We don't want fairness. We don't want diversity in our workplace. What I hear is, you want a biased system. Why don't you say that stand up and say that don't hide behind an acronym that you're trying to delegitimize say who you are, say what you are, because that is, you know what, when you say you don't want fairness in something stand up and say what you're about, really what you're about. Anyway, so those conversations were held in, I was, and I'm a kid listening to this. And I, it wasn't as if they said, go out and play. No, you stay right here because you need to hear these things that are going on in life. We, you need to, I was probably the most prepared person that could possibly be put in the position I was put in when I was named general manager to get all of the death threats that I got from simply being named to a position or the opposition on the radio. When I was named to the post and I was driving home and that person said the only reason he got the job was because he was black got home and spray painted on the side of my house, was, some things that I don't, I'm tired of repeating they're so disgusting. But I was prepared and I called my father and I said, here's what's going on. And he's yeah you got this, you 10 years old and listening to, or answering the phone with death threats against me and John and Tommy you got this, and so all of those things combined, the interesting thing is in those, when I tell people about those discussions in the household, then I ask people what's your visualization of the round table, the, the conversation and they say you've got, it was all black, people there, discussing issues. I'm like no, it was black, Mexican, white at the rainbow. And my father really valued and appreciated the people that weren't black that were there because they didn't have to be there, 

Natasha Nuytten: Right? 

Ken Williams: They were just there because it was right. It was just. And so I never felt like even with the background that I came with that I had to be surrounded by one particular group, one ideology, one way of charting a course, I was taught to look at the other person's vantage point and where they were coming from. And that I think has helped me. It's helped me to this day, navigate through some very difficult situations. And I've been rambling for so long now. I'm trying to think of what your question was. Oh. So over the years, that has been my answer as to what shaped me early on. I wasn't allowed to play any sports unless I brought home the grades and they were serious about that. I appreciate that because you can get sidetracked, but that was my carrot and I passed that down to my kids as well. But the more I look back and I reflect, my grandmother had me in church. She says it wasn't five, six days a week, but it was five, six days a week, early on before we moved to San Jose. And always, I always had a her voice in my head when potentially I might want to go left instead of going right. And when I think back, I think, wait a minute, I don't know that I have not put, what makes me so fortunate in life to have experienced the things that I've experienced, to meet all of, darn near all of my heroes growing up and to get phone calls from them and to know them personally. What makes me so special, I think, is that she prayed for me a lot. I can't ignore or escape that. I think I'm a by-product of my grandmother's extreme prayer, which I think set the foundation for so many things. And that voice in my head kept me on the right track. When, everybody, when they're young you can, that fork in the road and you can go towards the neon lights instead of the other direction. So that's my, that's the answer now that is most, is foremost in my mind. 

Natasha Nuytten: Thank you for sharing all of that, because I think, we're not a, we are a product of every experience we've ever had and every person whom we've encountered. And some have more significant influence than others. And yet there is a, there's a fundamental truth that there are people in our world and in our history who leave a deeper imprint than others. And that matters, right? And maybe it's a grandmother. My, I certainly, my grandmother was one of those people in my life as well. Maybe it is a parent. Maybe it is the absence of one of those people, right? Or the legacy that they left with the people who came before you, right? That, that certainly leaves an imprint as well. So I really appreciate you sharing that. There are a couple of threads there in some of the things that you've shared that I want to pull on. And one of them is, the conversation around DEI and DEIB, whatever, justice, whichever letters we talk about in that acronym. And the conversation's really been turned into something else entirely. And I know you get as passionate about that as I do. So there are a couple of threads there that I want to pull on. One being, you were talking about diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging, right? And DEI, B or J justice, or a lot of people using a lot of letters. But the reality is that I heard someone say the other day, and this really resonated with me. You and I have talked a lot about the conversation being turned into something that it just isn't, right? And that being so incredibly frustrating for the last few years outside of where things sit now. But what was interesting is this person said, if we just stop using it as an acronym, and we start talking about diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging, justice, whatever those words are, and we have a conversation about those actual things, it changes it somehow, right? Because DEI is this boogeyman in the corner. It's been turned into this acronym that people can say, oh, yeah, DEI and affirmative action and all of these things. When you start talking with someone about, okay what is it that you don't want to your point? Is it that diversity doesn't work for you? Do you think people should be included in opportunities? Is it that you don't think we should treat people equitably? Is it that people don't want to feel like they belong where they are? When you start actually talking about what those things are, it changes the conversation, because then someone has to be clear about what part of it they're not down with, right? What really bothers them. And, I've been looking for a way to help myself. We have this conversation a lot with people, given the work that we do. And I've been thinking for myself, like, how do we change that conversation? And I end up having great discussions when we start talking about the actual values of the thing. And I find that there's a lot more alignment than people might say at the outset of the conversation. So I'm curious if, without, without stepping in any, landmines, because it certainly could go that way. I'm curious if you could talk just a little bit about the role that inclusion and diversity have played in the work that you've done in building the organizations that you've built, over the last 35 years of your life. 

Ken Williams: You see me smiling because I am so out of patience with people. I don't get it. I've not gotten a clear explanation on why some people feel the way they do about this subject. And when I do get into these conversations, it's not turning out well, because, and I'll take you to one I just had a couple of days ago. Very successful, important person. I'm going to leave out his name, but just the logic escaped me because there was none. And then when I said, OK if you're against this, you're for bias. So explain to me why you're biased in the hiring. We weren't just talking about hiring. I was talking about college admissions and, the whole thing that is now has been weaponized to deny people opportunities. That's what this is. And I asked him, he's a white man. And I said, exactly where do you think that white men aren't getting an opportunity in our society? And, he talked about qualifications, and there was an implication that all DEI efforts are resulting in people who aren't qualified for positions. And I said, OK, so you are an Ivy League man. You are proud of that, right? Yes. Some of the best talent comes from the Ivy League and, the Stanford's of the world. And I said, OK, so assuming that you believe that, in your heart of hearts, you do understand that those same institutions, Harvard, Yale, Stanford on the West Coast, some of the most respected as the institutions have studied this and companies have studied this. And what they have found is that productivity in organizations, in schools that subscribe to the ideas behind diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging, see 30 percent productivity gains, whereas those that don't see those types of gains. This is coming from your Ivy League institutions that you have steadfastly stood behind year after year on subject after subject. And so now you're taking this one and saying they don't know what they're talking about. I said, OK, I'm a person that likes to see people's vantage points. So since you have this belief, you tell me why they are wrong. What the very institutions you went to and you have stood behind. This is what they're saying. Here's what some of the top companies across the nation are saying. And you're saying, no, that's wrong. Where's your evidence? I'm giving you my evidence. Where's your evidence? And that's when I started getting some rambling, bumbling, answers and pointing to specific instances where a particular something went wrong somewhere and they pointed the finger at someone who happened to be a woman or minority. And I said, really? I said, you know what? I bet you I probably could find more non-minorities that have made more mistakes in the workplace than you could find out there. And simply because the group that I'm talking about doesn't get a whole lot of opportunity. But OK, so so I and so so the conversation then gets a little adversarial. And as I stated in the opening of this, the second rambling, the session that I've had here or segment that I've had here, I'm out of patience with these people. So I'm just saying, you know what? We have developed something that could mitigate bias. And the people that are interested in it will be interested in it or use it and will make gains from it. And the people that don't, you're just going to be left behind. 

Natasha Nuytten: Yeah. You're going to miss out. That's for real. So question for you, you've really spent your career identifying and developing talent both on and off the field. And so I'm curious what. What first made you realize that the hiring process itself needed to change? 

Ken Williams: Sports, you have an on field product and then you have the off field product, the administrative role that you have to play. In addition to putting together the team, people think that the game starts at seven o'clock. People think, oh, you show up at six o'clock, and batting practice starts. And then, what a great job. No, I've been here since nine a.m. There's a whole bunch of administrative stuff. I got stacks of budget books, like that. I think that what I'm looking for in my coaches, my development people, and managers was different than what I was looking for administratively. I have been very fortunate now and, in the sense that I hired a man named Rick Han as my assistant general manager 20 some odd years ago, and he was my right hand man. And we complimented each other in a variety of ways. And now, I have you by my side. And you spoke earlier about an example that another person said to you, they knew how to get out of people's way. That took me a while to learn. But when I learned it. When I got confident in it, we got better. And. Early on with you, I realized, oh, OK. Get out of her way. She knows how to drive this train. Get out of her way and give her the peripheral support that she may need when the overall with the overall vision, with the overall direction. And you don't need to get in the weeds on anything. And so that frees me. Me up to think, big picture. And that's a very valuable thing, a very valuable thing. I'll say on the administrative side, I needed Rick as a lawyer. I needed that type of structure. I needed that type of detail. And. That thinking, that way of thinking that you're trained in that profession, and he was an agent before, he came over to the baseball operations side. So I wanted those type of people around me. And in the administrative side, on the. Player development on the team side of things, the baseball operations, I first wanted people that were not intimidated by me. I can be short sometimes, straight to the point, and I recognized early on that if you didn't have substantial confidence in you, that I could shut you down, shut down a room. So I had to have people around me that were not afraid. It's two stories. I hired my manager, Ozzie Guillen, who was the World Series manager. And that was after an argument. That I would write there in the interview. I played with him, so I knew who he was. I knew what he knew. I knew the details. I knew that he would have. I knew the discipline he would have. And I wanted and needed those things. But I didn't know if he was going to be someone that would be just, would acquiesce to every whim I wanted. I needed somebody to say, no, you're wrong. We're not. I don't want to do it that way. This is the way I think we should do it. And so the first question I asked him during the interview was, I said, let me tell you something. I played with you. You got a hell of a convincing job to get me to hire you to be the Chicago White Sox manager. Why should I hire you? And he went off. You know me, you know what I bring to the table. Why would you bring me up here if you weren't going to hear me out? We're in the back of a restaurant. It was a private area. Hey, I'm coming right back at you when you start yelling at me. I don't like that. I don't like that. So we're in the back and people are dining. It's over lunch. And then we walk out after we're done. And they're like, what the hell happened back there? And they knew both of us, obviously. But before the interview was over, he was my manager because I knew if he could stand up there and do that to me, there was not a player, a staff member or anyone that was going to get away with anything. 

Natasha Nuytten: So I want to, I'm going to interject just for a second, because there is something about pushing back that's important. But as a leader, you only get that when there is, when it's safe to do that, right? Like you only get it when the other person on the other side knows, I can disagree. I can have an opinion and we're going to move through it on the other side. And it's going to be okay and safe to do that. And that's a gift too. So how in your relationship with him, you had played with him before, but like it may be not him, maybe other instances. I'm curious how you went about cultivating that, to use the term that people are using now, psychological safety for your team to feel like they could say to you, Kenny, hard no, like that's ridiculous. We need to think through this differently and not feel like there are going to be those repercussions. 

Ken Williams: Yeah. Second story. This is when we had spring training in Tucson, Arizona. One of our coaches was friends with Ron Howard, the director. And so Ron Howard and Tom Hanks, they were in the middle of filming the Da Vinci code. So he came to me and said, Hey, Ron and Tom want to come out to spring training. Hey, can they come into the clubhouse and everything? I was like absolutely. They can put on a uniform if they want and come out and shag some balls, fine. Matter of fact, invite them to the morning meeting. So they came into our morning meeting and I forget what the issue was, but we went to it in that morning meeting, and it was F-bombs from firing all over the room. I loved it. I loved it. So Ron and Hank pulled me, Ron and Tom pulled me aside after the meeting and said, is it always like this? You guys are okay, right? You're okay. And I was like, what are you talking about? He's that we've never been in a meeting like that. And you guys are okay. I said, yeah, watch the rest of the day. We're going out back right now. And we'll be laughing and joking about it and making fun of people. They will be making fun of me. They, my coaches were, they, you waited for an opportunity to be able to jab somebody. And it wasn't uncommon if I had the team, for instance, a couple of my coaches would pull me aside after and say, okay Kenny gave a Stanford, he gave a Stanford speech today. And then other times they'll say, Ooh, that was a Mount Pleasant high school speech. That was bad. But what with, so I'm answering your question by showing you that when you walk out of that room, you're all pulling from the same rope and you make it evident. And you, if you're meeting at the bar later, you're still, you're hanging out still and the players see you, other coaches see you, the administrative people see you being disagreed with being a sport is a little different. Like the baseball ops side with those, I don't want to say egos, but the characters over there are different than the administrative side in the way that you can foster that type of disagreement and kind of conversation. But I think you have to be more careful in how you articulate some of it. But you still on the other side of it have to make sure that again, you make people feel safe in that environment and that it's okay. And you're all pulling from the same rope. 

Natasha Nuytten: So I'm hearing a couple of things here and please correct me if I'm putting Tasha words on these instead of Kenny words. I would say one is really clear about outcomes and like objectives, like what we're actually aiming to do is very clear. So we're all pulling in the same direction, doing the same thing too. No, you're not holding grudges, right? Like you're not holding it against someone that they disagreed with or thought your idea was garbage, whatever language they're using, right? That it's okay to have that conversation. And I still respect you as a person. Three, the people you're talking to. Even in the example of, operations versus on field conversations, understanding the person with whom you're having the conversation and making some adjustments, perhaps it's all still you. You're all still straightforward. You're, and you're still honest, but you're making those adjustments. So those are three things I'm hearing: clarity of purpose and vision. I'm hearing not holding grudges in that respect that your ideas are just as valuable as mine. And I'm going to hear them out. We might disagree, but I still respect you. And three, I know you enough to know how to engage with you and to show up with you. 

Ken Williams: There's another one. And I think that's sensitivity. I think you need to be sensitive to another person's journey. 

Natasha Nuytten: Yeah. 

Ken Williams: They may have, what, where have what's happening in their life? Because of that, there are times where maybe you want to ease up on a conversation, or maybe you want to push, where they are in their life, where, what their history is in former jobs, for instance that goes to getting to know people. What, we have an eclectic group at Clara, we have an eclectic group of personalities, right? Some are more outgoing than others. And the ones maybe that aren't, you have to, I believe, spend a little more time a little more time in making them feel like it's safe to, to articulate any opinions that they may have. Cause you don't know, I used to make people very uncomfortable in our rooms because the interns, I would allow the interns in, where trade discussions, very sensitive or contract discussions, very sensitive information. I'd allow the interns in and would ultimately ask them a question in the room because you don't know who's holding back valuable information or a valuable opinion. And by doing that, you establish trust in people and value. And you have to do it by addressing or understanding who they are and what brought them to this point in their life. And what as a leader, what they need to take the next step and always be interested in that and express that to them, that you are interested. I'm more, I've for so many years, I've been more interested in what I can do for other people than what anybody can do for me. 

Natasha Nuytten: Yeah. And that's such a critical and important thing that I think we sometimes, some people at a young age are more intuitive about that than others. So I don't want to discount it entirely, but I do think that it is when we're younger or earlier in our career, perhaps is a better way of saying it. It's not so much about age. It's about more experience, I think, and confidence. When we're insecure or feeling like maybe we're not, we're in over our head or we're operating at, what I like to call a growth edge. It can be the default to try to prove something, right? Try to prove what it is we know or how good we are or that we deserve to be in the spot that we're in. And what that does is the fact that when you're then working with other people, they can't be their best selves because you're trying to be, you're trying to be all the things, right? And so shining a light on other people is such an incredible way to get the best out of a team or an individual and helping them find how it is that they contribute best, right? Because not everybody uses sports. I was going to go with basketball, but we'll go with baseball. Not everybody's a pitcher, right? Or not everybody. I'm going to just go with basketball. Cause I love, listen, grow up when I grow up,it's all about the bulls, right? It was all about Jordan and Pippen and Rodney, like that team. But you can't all be, not everybody is a Michael Jordan, right? Like he's special because of, because he's special because he's different. But he can't be him. If Rodman's not being Rodman and Pippen's not being Pippen and Steve Carr's not being Steve, like you have to build that team. But helping people and valuing our earlier conversation around what is unique that everybody brings or the experience that they've had. This is actually something you've said now several times in our conversation, respecting where someone has been and what they bring and valuing that, right? As, okay, how do we use that skill and ability and build you up in your strengths to help you work with the team to move in the direction that we've set? Like how can your, whether it's that you're a particularly shy person or whether it's that you are particularly analytical or you're really funny. Okay. Like how do we leverage those things best in this environment with this group of humans that you feel good, you show up as your best self and that, that gets us further down the road. That is why companies who value things like diverse experience and diverse professional and lived experience, why when they value different types of education, why they get more out of their teams, why they're getting that extra 30%. It's because everyone gets to bring their best while moving towards the same shared outcome. And I think everything you've been talking about, for me, it's all coming together in this thought of finding those nuggets, identifying what those things are, and then nurturing that. 

Ken Williams: It's hard to gauge how successful you can be in that area as a leader. It's hard. And I really didn't know. I hoped that I was giving of myself to the people that worked under me, worked with me, but it wasn't until my father passed away and I flew out to San Jose. It was a long stretch that I was out there for about six weeks, actually. But when he passed away and at his funeral, at the end of the funeral, I turned around and everybody not everyone, but a large part of the people that I worked with in the front office had flown out there for the day, just for that. And when I said, hey, come by the house after, he went, no, we have a flight back. I said, you guys flew out here this morning and you're flying back this afternoon. Are you kidding me? He said, yeah, we wanted to be here to support you. And I'm getting chills right now, even thinking about that. I got a lot of awards given over the years that say this or that, and stuff, but there's an award on my shelf for that. But in my heart, there's nothing greater that anyone can give me outside of my family than that. And that's when I knew, oh, I must have done something right. 

Natasha Nuytten: That's the perfect place to land this, because that is, it is about business outcomes, of course. But more importantly, it's about the humans that you're doing, you're taking the journey with, and those relationships that impact those outcomes so significantly. I've appreciated this conversation, as I always appreciate our conversations. Is there anything, there's a lot more that I could ask you that I haven't, but is there anything that I should have asked today that I didn't, or something that you want to leave us with? 

Ken Williams: I think it's important to note that we're both here, and we both have an opportunity to help people, help the organizations and the companies that we're partnering with, and help the individuals be seen. But at one point in time, I had this idea and discussed it with my wife, and that was during a lockout. Baseball was shut down at that time. And I've got old documents here of things that I was trying to put together and everything, and we were called back to work suddenly. And this would have died if, unless Zoraida, my wife, looked at me and said, don't worry, I got you. I got this. And she went to work with two people, Lonnie Murray and Karen Nightingale. And they spent a lot of time on this hours upon hours while I was busy back at work. And it was a few months where I was absent and then could re-engage before we met you. And they kept it afloat. If it were not for these women, my wife and these other two women, we would not be here today in a position to where we have got a unique product, a product that in business, life experience, and bringing all the little nuances that we talked about to the table for people to be seen in ways that they haven't been seen before. And I feel like you send credit where credit is due. 

Natasha Nuytten: Plus one. Thank you to the three of them. Thank you. I've appreciated your time and always appreciate our engagement and your support. Thank you. 

Ken Williams: No, thank you. For the people that don't know out there, Natasha is a superstar. And she's the driving force behind this right now. And hopefully we will cross some milestones here soon and people will be more aware of us and our abilities to help as time goes on. 

Natasha Nuytten: Thank you, my friend. I appreciate it. All right. That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I appreciate all of you and hope that you join us for the next conversation and keep the human side up.