Navigating Fear, Race & Illness in the Workplace | Dr. Tonya Hampton

Natasha Nuytten: Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Human Side Up podcast. I am Natasha Nuytten, your host, and today I have the privilege of bringing you a conversation with Dr. Tanya Jackman Hampton. And I'm really excited to share this conversation because Dr. Hampton is a seasoned HR leader whose successful professional journey is really deeply rooted in her personal experience, her values, and several transformative moments. Her story reflects resilience, purpose, and a commitment to fostering inclusive leadership and organizational excellence. Tanya grew up in Minnesota, where her family founded the Minnesota Spokesman-Recorder, which is the oldest Black-owned newspaper in the state. And this legacy of her family really reflects advocacy and community impact that really shaped her early understanding of what leadership is and the importance of amplifying diverse voices. Her upbringing really instilled the values of resilience and service, which later became very central to her career. Over her 30-year career, it was really marked by pivotal roles in Fortune 500 companies, healthcare organizations, and nonprofits. As a breast cancer survivor and avid runner, Dr. Hampton embodies the perseverance and determination that is really reflected in her approach to leadership. Her ability to balance cultural nuances while driving systemic change demonstrates her ability to be adaptable and to commit to equity. She's the founder of Sequel Consulting Group, where she channels her expertise into empowering leaders through coaching, workshops, strategic consulting, and more. Her book, The Myth of the Fearless Leader, encapsulates her philosophy that embracing fear can be a catalyst for authentic leadership. I'm pleased and excited to introduce you to Dr. Tanya Jackman-Hampton. Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Tanya Jackman-Hampton, and thank you so much for being here with me. I'm excited for this conversation. For those listening, you know I get excited about many conversations, but this one in particular bubbles up for me because Tanya and I had the opportunity to meet at a summit fairly recently. But what I really was intrigued about was that you were the keynote and you were talking about being fearless, the myth of the fearless leader, being a fearless leader. What is, what even is that? And is it even possible? And is it smart to try to pretend that you might be fearless? And so I'm excited to have you here today to talk about your book, but also to talk about your decades of experience in human resources. And you've worked in organizations from nonprofits, like very large hospital systems and things like that. So I'm excited to just pick on your experience just a little bit to hear from you. So thank you so much for being here. 

Dr. Tonya Hampton: Oh, thank you, Natasha, I'm pleased to be here and I appreciate the opportunity. Absolutely. 

Natasha Nuytten: So the first place that we start with all of our guests on the podcast is asking the questions, we can learn a little bit more about you and finding out two or two or three things that might not be on your resume that are true about you, that you have learned are true and how you came to embrace them as true about you. 

Dr. Tonya Hampton: Yeah the first one that comes to mind is I'm a connector and I didn't realize how organic or how curated that was by my father. And it was a result of him navigating the world and connecting with many different people for many different reasons. An example is he oftentimes will tell a story about someone in his life, particularly myself. And I've received LinkedIn requests as a result. I met your father to fill in the blank. And so he does that naturally. He drives a bus that involves taking people from a parking lot to a hill at a ski resort or a ski park. And along that way, he will meet millions and millions of people. And he's done that now for probably the last 15 years as an extra. But now it's like a job. He's 80 years old and it's hard for him to give it up because he had driven a semi for many years. And then in between, he was a co-publisher for our family paper. But at any rate, he's known in the community for connecting with many different people. And so I learn by watching him, by observing and taking up his habits unbeknownst to me. And then realized that I do enjoy connecting people. And I actually was just watching a TED talk yesterday. Ironically, that subject is coming up. And so thank you for inviting me. But the TED talk is by Audrey Jacobs, and she does TED talks here in San Diego. And she essentially hosts. She does great work hosting that show as a curator of local people here in San Diego. Anyways, her TED talk is about matchmaking. And I thought, wow, yeah, there are some things that really resonated with me about that. So that's one thing. Another thing is that I definitely have been receiving feedback throughout my life that I'm a calm person. And I actually have received it both from a positive and negative standpoint and negative being, I think, more about people's perception of what types of characteristics that you exude when there's a sense of urgency in the space. And so that when they expect that there's a level of intensity or crisis, etc., I'm the calm one. And they expect that I'm going to react a certain way or that I should react a certain way. And I've described this to my team before, and I've shared with them that little do you know, I'm like the duck right in the water. The legs are going really fast inside. But on the surface, I remain calm. Another example which connects to the third thing that I'll share with you is I'm very strategic and a planner, so much so that sometimes I will get ahead of my own self. And so that's in part how I remain calm. Strategy or planning is how I go about my life. And I've had my husband tell me, you're just going too fast. Can't you just stop? Why don't you think about it? And little I think about it, but it doesn't always appear that way because the motion is so action oriented. And so what I've learned is it's important for me to bring people along so they know what are the steps that I have taken and will take. And so I've integrated that into my strategic planning and how I interact with people so that they can understand both the calm and the strategy. 

Natasha Nuytten: Yeah, I love that. Thank you for sharing. Having had a background, I think all the way through almost even middle school because back in the day you could work when you're 14, all the way through graduate school. I was in the service industry and that duck underwater philosophy was like everywhere. I was just, don't panic, just stay calm, stay busy, but plan. So I really am resonating with that. You can do that when you are thinking ahead, right? And you've thought through the steps so you can move really quickly and you can remain calm. So I'm resonating with that very deeply. So thank you for sharing. So one of the things that I would love to talk with you about, you wrote a book called The Myth of the Fearless Leader, and it really challenges conventional ideas about leadership. And frankly, to me, it feels more relevant than ever because so much is changing not only socioeconomically in our country, but also from a perspective of culture and technology. Like all of these things are swirling around and changing very rapidly right now. And so I think that there are a lot of leaders who are having the challenge of dealing with their own anxieties or not necessarily, and that maybe is a big word, but like their own concerns. And there is uncertainty, right? Even the smartest, most insightful leaders right now are like, I have no idea what is happening. I don't know how this is going to go. So I think this book is really relevant. So I would love to just ask you before we dive into some of those ideas like, what inspired you to write this book and why do you think that embracing fear is so critical for folks today? 

Dr. Tonya Hampton: Yeah, I am doing a lot of reflection on this type of question and I don't have the full answer yet, but I will say that what was a impetus, not necessarily the impetus of me writing the book is I was in my doctorate program needing to complete my dissertation. And at the time, my grandmother was passing or on her sort of last days and she had ovarian cancer and I was concerned about my emotions associated with that. She and my parents, actually, they created a pact, if you will, and helped me go to law or to undergrad. And I wanted to go to law school, but I didn't go. I actually decided not to. And ironic, my husband is going to law school right now, too. But at any rate, I had that experience of needing to complete my dissertation and also dealing with the passing of my grandmother and all of the story that was around her and my life and how much she supported me. And so I realized that I couldn't possibly be alone in my fears, worries and doubts and also being an executive leader at the time and completing my, needing to complete my dissertation. And so I landed on gosh, how do other people deal with their fears? How do they respond and what's the relationship? And can this be information, data that can help inform me and allow me to get to a good place of completion? Because I needed to be done in order to get my doctorate degree. And so that's how I embarked on it. And then, though, that was just a dissertation, that wasn't a book. And I had a very dear friend, now sorority sister, Dara Bevis. She is the owner or co-owner of Wise Inc., the publishing company, and it's headquartered in Minneapolis, Minnesota. I met her at a women's conference and she encouraged me to write my book after I had submitted a proposal. Then I backed down because I thought, oh, gosh, that's pretty daunting. But about a year after that, I went back to her. And during that journey, I had different influencers. I had the opportunity to work for an organization, a small boutique firm in Silver Spring, Maryland, called Cook Ross. And Howard Ross was one of the original owners, co-owned it with another woman with the last name of Cook. And they evolved and then she went on separate ways. And then he and his wife continued the growth of the business. And so at the time, they were the leaders and then a new leader was taking on ownership. During that stint at the boutique firm, I built many different relationships, had people who were reporting to me that were thought leaders, and I highly respected them. So with Howard and all the other consultants that I worked with at this boutique firm, they helped to influence my perspective on how important it was to contribute even more I learned contribution was important while in my doctorate program to literature, contributions to literature. And so they encouraged me to write a book and I started that path of doing articles. And then in order to expand upon the research that I did in my dissertation, I interviewed thousands of leaders through workshops or one-on-ones to refine the data. And so that gave me confirmation that I had done some heavy lifting to understand our fears, how people respond, what's the relationship, and worthy enough to bring that forward so that other people could learn from it. And then I had my own testimony. I participated in the research when I did it back in my dissertation. And then finally, it allowed me to get to a place of expressing some of the deeper fears that I have. And I grew through that process. I would say that I also, frankly, didn't connect the dots until talking to you right now, that one of the things I discovered way too late, like I wish I had discovered it before, that I love memoirs and autobiography type books. And the book that I wrote is a bit of that. It tells some stories about myself. It tells stories about the people that I interviewed. And it, I hope, serves as a vehicle for inviting more places and spaces for people to feel comfortable talking about their fears. And in particular, leaders doing that, I think there are expectations that people hold about leaders where leaders feel like they can't expose what really is going on inside. And it's so important that they have the opportunity to do that for their own growth, for the impact on their team and their organization. 

Natasha Nuytten: Yeah, I love that, because for me, what's happening is all these dots in the conversation we've had already are being connected, this relationship piece that your father introduced into your world, this listening and hearing people's stories and connecting with them to how you worked through your own experience. And, a lot of people, when they're afraid, they come up against it. And their response is not to unpack it, not to dive into it and then unpack it. And, put it all over the room and then try to put it back together. But to just put the lid on and put it in a corner. And so I'm seeing that and in your process and how you went through that, it's connecting to other people. How do I ask questions? How do I learn? And then you're talking about loving memoirs, like learning from other people's experience. And pulling that together and synthesizing it. And what I love about that is tying that to the book that you did put into the world. You talk a lot about this concept of whole self and leadership, and it can be very intimidating for people to think about that because, there are different definitions of it and which version of myself, like my Friday night self at work or, my Sunday morning sort of breakfast kind of self. So I'm curious as you've worked through that and you've been now coaching a lot of other folks and working with other leaders and how to find their own safety in being able to share their experiences that make them better leaders. How do you guide them in balancing that sort of personal authenticity with the demands of really high stake environments where we need to cultivate respect and leadership in this way that feels so different now than it did 30 years ago? And it may not be different. I think the reality is like good leadership's always been good leadership, but we're talking about it a little bit differently and giving people more room to lean into some of those things. Sorry, added to that, so the question being, like, how do you help people walk through that in finding the balance between that authenticity and that responsibility for striving goals? 

Dr. Tonya Hampton: Yeah, or something I said a while back, at least about 10 years ago, I know, this term authenticity came really popular and what I reminded people is that you cannot often allow authenticity to trump your integrity, right? So being in a conversation and being authentic does not mean being disrespectful. It doesn't give you a pass to say something hurtful to an audience in a meeting or to someone one on one. So leaning in, though, can require you to say something that is difficult to say to someone or a group of people. But. When you enter into that conversation, it's important to enter it with care and compassion. And I had a very dear friend who's no longer present anymore. Her name was Sharon Piper Diggs, and she taught me that you can teach anyone or speak to anyone with a smile. And if you can really ground in that smile, even when you're saying some of the more difficult things or being even more significantly authentic, perhaps than others might think that they can be. The receiving end of that authenticity is much more accepted when you're smiling and you're able to create a space of support. That's the first thing. The other thing I remind people of is being really grounded in your values and. Getting really a piece of paper on my phone, I keep my top values, that's an example, and keep them close to yourself so that in those situations where you are feeling divided, you can go back to your values and that will hold you or ground you in how you should move forward. And so I strongly encourage people to use those values as if they are a shirt that they're going to put on and wear them all the time. The final thing is remembering that when you do make that decision, that most of the decisions, the outcomes, we're uncertain about. Like most life decisions, we are uncertain about them. And I often say that we sleep, we eat, we go to meetings and we exercise. And in all four of those activities, for example, there's uncertainty. When I go to sleep, I don't know if I'm going to wake up or I don't even know if I'm going to have a good night's rest. When I eat, I don't know if the food's going to be good for me or not so good for me. When I exercise, I don't know if I'm going to hurt myself or not. And when I'm in a meeting, I don't know if I'm going to say something that people are going to receive or not. These are examples of basic things that we do every single day. And so we step into those activities. Without sometimes even thinking about it, we're autopilot about it. And so if we can remind ourselves of the times at which we have done things where we didn't have all the answers, then it's much easier, not completely easy, but it's much easier to step into something else that we're unfamiliar with and get uncomfortable with because we've been there before. And so that's another thing I teach people when it comes to having authentic conversations, engaging in authentic work, really showing up, reminding yourself of your values, and reminding yourself of the basic decisions that you've made. 

Dr. Tonya Hampton: But yet those basic decisions are really important to apply to even those more difficult ones because it proves to you that you can do it. And then be respectful and smile. Don't go into it in a situation where you feel like you have to say something so bold without being thoughtful about it. 

Natasha Nuytten: That's, kindness is important, right? It's such a simple thing and we teach kids to be kind, but we sometimes forget that as grown folk, we should also be kind. I'm curious, thinking about the research that you did for your dissertation that ultimately led to more research and then your book. Were there particular areas in which leaders that you spoke with either struggled to express some of that, to show up as leaders, as themselves, and be kind? And then on the opposite side of that, were there places where it was much easier for them to do that? Just so we can create a little bit of awareness for ourselves about where to be looking out. 

Dr. Tonya Hampton: Yeah. What I can say is, in the work, the information that gets close to what you're asking is that people didn't talk about some of the deeper fears that I mentioned for myself. And I have a hunch that they didn't talk about those things, which I'll say in a minute, are they didn't talk about them because we don't give people the freedom to talk about them when we are leaders. So for instance, one of my deeper fears is losing someone, not death itself, but losing someone. And so I express, and it's interesting. So remember I told you I'm still working on this reflection and trying to figure out why did I come upon this topic? It's now coming to me a little bit more in that the very first person I remember passing away in my life, he was five. He was my grandfather. And my grandfather used to give me coins. And now I believe that those coins were his demonstration of trying to pass on wealth. And I talk about, in my book, losing people. And I often think about him or other people that I've lost. And when you think about it, being five years old and having a very vivid memory of someone passing, that's pretty significant. It has a bit of trauma interweaved in there. It also has a bit of just emotion weaved in there and other components of things that impact your personality. And so I would say that the idea of people sharing when they lose someone at work doesn't happen often. And that we should give leaders a space to talk more about that, no matter what type of leader they are. The second thing I would say is that I expressed the idea of having an illness, a personal illness. And I am a five and a half year cancer survivor. Again, you don't hear, thank you, you don't hear people talking about the diseases that affect themselves often while at work. And in some respects, it's private. We need to respect the privacy of individuals. And when they're wanting to, we should give them space to share that information. I had a very dear manager at the time that I had been diagnosed. And I said, I don't know what I should tell people. He said, you don't have to tell them anything until you're ready. So I still think that's important, that we should allow the person to protect their privacy. But when they are ready, hold a space for them and support them. And then the final thing that is much more difficult and so much on the surface of our world today, particularly here in the US, is race. And I know that I, throughout my life, ebbs and flows, hills and valleys, have suffered from racial anxiety. And it's because of the way at which I inherited that concern about race from my own family, right? The African American and the Black population has been oppressed for many years. We're not the only population by any means. And yet, my experience, just everybody else who has been oppressed, is my experience. And as a result of the experiences that I've had in my life, I have energy that sometimes comes up that reminds me of how difficult it is to evolve as a Black woman. And so I talk about that in my book. And I think different parts of the US invite that conversation more than other parts. And I think that, in my experience, corporations are less likely to deal with the race issues that are in their environment. There are some, obviously, that do. And we've made some progress, which is great. And I don't always like that cliche. But nonetheless, we have addressed, right? And have made progress. And we've got more work to do. And we've had times where we've gone back and forth. And, it's like the old adage of five steps forward, 10 steps back. And so we have to keep going. And I suppose it's not like anything or different from anything else. We have to keep working at it, right? I often equate dealing with race as we brush our teeth. We should brush our teeth every day. And if we didn't they wouldn't remain clean and taken care of and nicely nourished. And so we have to address race every single day and understand what are the differences that exist in the world, and work towards connection, work towards making sure that people feel valued and included, and belong. And really think about what is the difference that they bring about so that I can incorporate that difference to ensure that I'm creating the most inclusive environment possible. 

Natasha Nuytten: Yeah, so one of the things we try really hard to do on this podcast is provide some really practical tips and suggestions. So are there a handful of recommendations you would have for leaders to be able to say, hey, this is how we go about creating that psychological safety to deal with whether it's a race issue or a gender issue, whatever it might be. What are some tips that you might have in showing up as yourself in the sort of like best way that makes sense for you, but also creating that space for people to also do the same and creating that psychological safety? Yeah. 

Dr. Tonya Hampton: Very much do your very best to be yourself. And recognize or be willing to admit that you don't know everything. And you don't have to. So step one is do your very best to be yourself. Two is to acknowledge that you don't know everything. Three is to have your own personal story to share. It doesn't have to be your life story. But have a story that has came up in your life that's relatable that you can share with other people. And nine times out of 10, it doesn't have to be the perfect story. So don't spend so much time thinking about what is the perfect story. Generally, there's something in what we say that people will resonate with. And so we just have to be willing to try to share that story. The fourth thing I would say is invite other people to share. Make it a safe space. And, make sure you reference that to who you're speaking with. This is a safe space. I want to invite the opportunity for both of us to share. And you can share whatever you feel comfortable with, as an example. And really, so number five really listening, being present. Listening happens, hearing what the person is sharing, and then reflecting back. Not repeating, but reflecting back what you thought you heard them say. So that you can then think about if they want it. And you have to make sure you ask, do they want a solution? Or do they want a space for just sharing? Because, we can put out solutions. I was at an appointment. I will not say specifically the appointment. It was a personal appointment. It was an okay appointment. It wasn't like, a real private appointment, but it was an appointment. I'm trying to protect the entity. Bless the person who was caring for me, her heart. She meant well. But she was suggesting that I buy something that I didn't even ask for. And so it was a way to take care of myself with something. And she had this tip, and she was saying that this perfect thing, if you haven't tried it, you should try it. Because currently, the current brand you use probably is not working, was her impression or her assumptions. And so by the time I left that appointment, I was like, I don't need that new thing. It's just another thing that I'm going to buy and clutter my space. And oh, again, she meant well. But I often ask my clients, my coaches, I call them, or my people that I'm consulting with, the partners that I have, what is it that you need? What are you looking for? Are you looking for ways to solve the problem? Or are you looking for a space to strategize and think about what you might do? I would say that most people, when you get approached the question, can answer their own question. So they typically have the answer within them, they just need somebody to help them surface it, and so the power is in the question. And that would be also what I would say. That idea of really listening, asking the person what it is that they need, is another step. 

Natasha Nuytten: Yeah. A few things came up for me while you were sharing about this. One, especially as leaders, we feel like we have to have answers. And so sometimes we assume that someone is coming to us because they want us to solve a problem. Because that's the mode we're in all day long, is answering questions, making decisions, solving problems. And so I often have to catch myself. And I'm better in some relationships than others. And partly I think it may be because I have a little more of a history in some of those working relationships where we've established that it's not always about me solving a problem, right? It might just be about listening. So sometimes I think I fall into that a little more easily. But literally just, hey, what's this conversation for you? What would be a good outcome? Is it feedback? Is it just having space to talk? Is it problem solving together? How can I be helpful? I think it is a great starting place. Because it helps us know how to show up, right? Or what to shut off for some of us. Exactly. And then two, yeah, so two, like there's a, there's the thing that a lot of people say that I think we, some people are really great at doing this all the time. Some of us have to remind ourselves, but really listening to listen and not feeling again, like you have to have an answer immediately and getting comfortable with that space in between. In between a response and like the finishing of one thing and the starting of another. And one of the folks who works with us is just absolutely, just a wonderful human being, but so good at practicing that, like literally counting to four when someone's done talking to see, A, if they want to add anything, but B, to give themselves a moment to think about what was just said, rather than just saying the first thing that comes to mind. And I just literally had this conversation with this person last week, and I was like, how did you learn? What was, how do you do that thing, right? Because everyone does it a little bit differently and it's such a simple thing, but just that pause, right? Because I think sometimes our first instinct is the right instinct, but sometimes that's not. And so even, just giving yourself that like moment to take in the thing that you heard and make sure that you're responding to what was actually said versus what you picked up 15 seconds before they finished, right? Anyway, it's something I think that I personally have to keep working on. So I love that. I think it's excellent practice. 

Dr. Tonya Hampton: And I like your tip. I like your tip of, I will give all 

Natasha Nuytten: credit to Asha Richardson, 

Dr. Tonya Hampton: all credit to her, for sure. 

Natasha Nuytten: Okay. So in thinking about it, I want to shift just a little bit, taking some of these things that you've talked about, you've worked and really led diversity and inclusion initiatives across some global organizations, right? What advice, when we think about showing up here as yourself, creating space for other people, and how would you, let me rephrase that. So in these organizations where you've led these diversity and inclusion initiatives, what advice do you have for leaders who might be struggling to really build those inclusive cultures? Like maybe the struggle is with themself, right? Knowing how to do the hard work because you have, it is hard and you have to keep doing it, right? It's evolving. So there might be a couple of tips there, but then there also might be those like a couple of tips in maybe the organization that I'm in isn't, this hasn't been the way that they've always been. And I'm here to lead some change. And so it becomes a little bit more of a change management or an expectation, setting of expectations or leveling of a new sort of cultural approach as a company. Do you have any recommendations for folks who are walking through those experiences where it's a little harder, whether internally or externally to get to that? 

Dr. Tonya Hampton: Yeah, I would say that, diversity and inclusion is a lifelong journey for all of us and organizations. And, we have to think and remember that there are systematic ways to change things and looking at different systems and processes within an organization and identifying the places that you can integrate diversity inclusion is where I have found to be the most effective. It's not programmatic. I think a number of organizations approach it as if it's a program and an event, and it's not. Events and programs can be a part of it, but it's not a, so singularly a program or an event. And I became an organizational development practitioner who leveraged concepts of diversity and inclusion to develop individuals, teams, and organizations so that they were inclusive. And I chose that path so that I could be a partner in looking at an organization from top to bottom or from A to Z, for instance, mission, vision, values being the peak to what are the systems, processes, practices, policies that we are going to have within the organization that can cultivate the inclusive organization that we're trying to create. And so I knew that I had a much deeper passion for being involved in improving performance and outcomes for organizations, and that diversity inclusion was one way to get there. And then there are also a multitude of other ways. And so my advice for any diversity inclusion and equity leader is to be sure to partner with not just your business partners, but also your HR partner. And correspondingly, the HR person has to be willing to partner with you. Another reason why I became the chief human resource officer for organizations is because I found that I was one of the few HR leaders that was initially, there's a lot more now, understanding what an HR leader brings to the table as well as what a diversity leader brings to the table. And the two partnering can be so powerful for an organization. Very similar to the CHRO should and ought to partner with the CFO, right? So I have had partnerships that were strong with the CFO, the CEO, the chief human resource or the chief health equity officer, the chief diversity officer. And I bring those up as examples because diversity inclusion cannot be the only job of the chief diversity officer or the chief health equity officer. But that person needs a multitude of partners within the organization to implement the changes that the organization is working towards. As leaders, it's so incredibly important to understand your own diverse story. We all are different. We all have different characteristics, whether they're visible or not visible. And so we need to understand, have that self-awareness, lead ourselves before we can lead other people, and identify what are our strengths and what are our opportunities so that we can use that information to know when we can lean on ourselves and when we should partner with other people. And that creates and cultivates inclusion by letting other people into the space, lead with you and drive change forward. And so it is a discipline to have as a leader that is about recognizing that you don't have to go it alone, and that self-discovery is important. And you're always growing, just the initiative itself needs to grow always, and you're going to have to shape it and approach it in different ways, very similar to how you're going to approach your P&L. There are going to be great days when you've got profit, and there's going to be bad days when you've got a lot of loss. And so what are you going to do? You're going to figure out ways to fulfill those gaps, to improve your profit, your productivity, your revenue. And the only way you're going to do that is if you work hard at it. Very similarly, the only way you're going to create an inclusive environment is to identify the gaps, work hard at it, and keep going until you pass the baton on to the next person. Yeah. 

Natasha Nuytten: Yeah. Plus one. Amen. Exclamation point. Emphasis. Whatever the emojis are. All those things. Yeah, because it really does. I think one of the things I have loved about the last, let's say, 10 years when we talk about leadership is there is this shift in, there has been a shift in perspective. And again, I'll go back to the idea that

Natasha Nuytten: this has probably always been true. We just didn't always talk about it in this way, that you have to do your work first, right? To be able to lead other people, right? And those folks who have some natural inclination and kind of fall into some things are typically those people who have a little more self-awareness, right? A little more humility, a little more reflection, natural reflectiveness on their own experiences. And so developing those things is super important. And I think that what you're talking about there is work and it does have to be prioritized. And I think it can be very challenging when you have 8,000 things to do, whether you have two people that are reporting to you or you have 20,000 people reporting to you. There is a level of importance in it that you have to make it a priority. And it can be, there are all kinds of reasons why we don't. It might be finances, it might be time, it might be, hey, we have the buildings on fire and we need to deal with that. And I understand, yeah, you do need to deal with the building being on fire, but there is also this level of commitment that we have to make to that being foundational, right? To be a great leader, to drive outcomes, especially when we think about human resources or diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging folks. Having a seat at the table means that you have to, A, see yourself as a leader and have a place at this table, so that B, others can see you as a leader and have a place at the table. And to do that, you have to do all that hard work to have the big picture, to have the insights, and then to be able to prioritize what are the things we're gonna do to drive. And you can't know how you can drive for someone else or how you can contribute to them until you know what it is you bring, right? So there's you just, you have to have that awareness. So I love that you're leading with the, hey, you gotta do the work. It's not easy and that's where you have to start. Okay, just one last question for you. One of the things that you talk a lot about is limiting beliefs, right? And so when we think about that, people doing their work, can you talk a little bit about some of the limiting beliefs that you've observed in emerging leaders and how someone, however they are in the course of their career might be able to identify and then begin to address or prioritize addressing some of those things? 

Dr. Tonya Hampton: Yeah, the first thing that came to mind was the notion of being fearless. It's limiting. If we think that we have to be fearless, we may not step into doing something that fears us. And if we resist it, it's avoidance and we don't see success that can be on the other side. And success doesn't mean that it's perfect on the other side, but success means you've done it and through that process, you've grown and you've learned different techniques to be better even the next time. So that's the first thing that comes to mind. The second thing that I say is, or I think is limiting is our own biases. And we're not always sure what biases we hold until we experience something. And I talk about a very simple bias that I had with tomatoes. I didn't like them. I talk about that in my book. And I also didn't like grass as a young girl. My kids or my siblings would put me on the grass and I would literally crawl up their legs. And I don't know what it was about grass, but now grass is beautiful, right? So if you think about that as a sort of a across the board limitation, it's just an example that serves to show that we can often hold different limitations that are predicated on our biases that prevent us from being willing to experience something. And it's so important that we are challenging ourselves every single day with our perceptions. What is it that I'm not seeing here in this situation? What is it that I'm not understanding? How might the other person be perceiving this situation? So putting ourselves in somebody else's shoes. And frankly, kind of full circle back to one of the things that we talked about earlier. I, as a person growing up with challenges around race, had to always ask myself, I still ask myself, what am I not seeing in the situation? So that I did not go to say this must be a racist issue, right? Because it's not fair if it's not obvious, right? There are things that are just obvious. And so I always asked myself, what could I be doing differently? And what am I not seeing in this situation? So that I challenged myself, what could I add? What could I improve? Or what might be somebody else's point of view? And how can I solicit that feedback? So that's a limitation, our biases. And I think the third thing is just our own vulnerability and our willingness to let other people in. It's scary sometimes to let other people know what's going on for you, right? What really is the duck that's paddling inside. But there are so many people in this world that you can connect to. And in particular, in your immediate sphere, there are so many people that love you. And there's a reality that there are some people that are not feeling like they are loved and rightfully so because they're struggling with homelessness or other challenges that they have encountered. And my heart just gets really unsettled when I think about those experiences for people. I can't fully relate, but I do have a lot of empathy and desire to wanna help the world, which is why I do the work that I do, is to try to help one person at a time. And maybe at some point it's gonna help someone else but our own vulnerability can be limiting. And our interest in wanting to share with other people and being open can create situations where people don't feel like they are connected, where they don't feel like they have support. And so one of the initial things that comes up for me and our interaction, Natasha, is just right away, right? The connectivity that we had. And I love relationships that start with that. I love relationships that start with that space of honoring and trying to understand one another. And we don't have to be competitive. We don't have to be about what about me? Or fear the other. If we just open up and understand how we might be able to support one another, we can figure out a way to create a world that has enough room for all of us. Yeah. 

Natasha Nuytten: That's a beautiful spot to land. So thank you. There you go. Yeah, I would agree with that. I'd agree with that. So in exiting here, I did say that was the last question, but is there anything I should have asked or that I didn't or anything you wanna leave us with or how can we be helpful to you? Would love to leave on that. 

Dr. Tonya Hampton: No, God. So many things, right? Like I appreciate the invitation for just even asking what's the question? Yeah, I look for different ways that I can support people, whether it's through coaching or supporting organizations through consulting and doing organizational development work to ensure that organizations or people are able to step into those high stake places and have encouragement and courage to do and I feel like my work can do that, whether it's through keynotes, consulting, or coaching, that's enough of the pitch. But the second thing I would say is that I am thinking right now, when you first said the question, what first came up to me she didn't ask me what my favorite color was. And so- What's your favorite color? Just a little bit of fun. My favorite color, I have many. I started out loving the color black, right? Everything I wore was black. And then my sister told me to shake it up a little bit. And I started wearing gray. So gray was the new black. Yes, I went with that fad. Yeah. But as a practice, I looked for different ways to look at color and purple actually was one of the colors that I landed on. I also like gold, yep. And I also like magenta. And so there are different bright stars that do sit in my wardrobe amongst the black and the gray. And so I know I've got black on today, but I've got red lipstick on. So maybe that counts for something. There you go. There you go. I love it. I love it. 

Natasha Nuytten: Thank you so much for joining us today and for sharing your insights and talking about what you've learned through your research for your book and bringing that to the table for us to consider how we need to do our own work to show up and make space for other people to do theirs. So I appreciate it. I wish you well. And- Thank you too. Thanks for sharing. All right. Take care. There you have it. Another great conversation with a leader who is exemplifying what it means to do your own work, to show up and help others do their best work. So thank you, Dr. Hampton, for joining me for that conversation. Thank you to all of you for participating as well. We'd love to hear from you. If you have any comments or questions, please feel free to reach out to us. We will also have Dr. Hampton's information in the show notes. And in the meantime, please practice courage in the face of fear and act in spite of, and then set an example for your teams to do the same. We look forward to hearing from you and we'll see you next time. Until then, keep the human side up.