Beyond Binary Thinking | Dr. Joel A. Davis

HSU Dr. Joel 2nd Recording Ao v01

Natasha Nuytten: [00:00:00] All right, everyone, hello. I am Natasha Nuytten, your host for Human Side Up, CEO of Clara, and enthusiastic learner. Today I'm very excited to bring to you part two of my conversation with Dr. Joel A. Davis Brown, the management consultant and chief visionary officer at Numos LLC. You will see, if you didn't have an opportunity to listen to our first episode, please do. We really laid the foundations for connection and community, talking about what diversity is, how it can drive better business outcomes, and the mindset shift that it requires from each of us to do our own work, to help other people and empower them to do their best work. But then today we really dug into and got really practical about some of the wisdoms. We will call them the meta themes, the wisdoms that we can gather from the queer community. And I learned so much from what Dr. Joel [00:01:00] shared with us. And I'm so grateful to him and the community with whom he has been working to do this, to get these learnings and to get this research, because it's just so meaningful and there's so much here. And it has really challenged my thinking and how I can do more and learn more and be better. So I'm excited about this conversation that I'm sharing with you today. Dr. Joel A. Davis-Brown, thank you so much for joining me again on Human Side Up for the second part of a conversation. I walked away from our last conversation with a lot to think about and just eager to jump into the rest of those 47 questions that I had for you. So thank you for making time. I really appreciate it. Dr. Joel 

Dr. Joel: A. Davis-Brown It is my pleasure. And to your listeners and [00:02:00] viewers, I'm a little under the weather, so I don't have all of my superpowers, but I have enough to hopefully sound somewhat intelligent today. Dr. Jennifer Lee I 

Natasha Nuytten: have no doubt. And I really am extra grateful that you're making time when you're not feeling 100%. So thank you for that. For those of us, for those folks who were not with us during the last conversation, just a sort of quick touch on why I think that you will find this conversation as intriguing as it and as insightful as I did. Joel is the chief visionary office officer, excuse me, at Numos LLC. And they specialize in organizational development, leadership training, diversity inclusion work. But I think what is one of the things that for me is the most intriguing about you coming to this work, Joel, is that you have such a varied background, right? Everything from political science and philosophy to African American studies, Spanish, law, like leadership and adult education. Like you've just got such a broad [00:03:00] background that for someone like me who likes to pull threads from all kinds of different places, I think that's really evident in your work. And I think it is really informative here. So it's probably one of the reasons why I get so excited about it. So last, the last time we spoke, just giving folks a little bit of a trail, if they haven't had an opportunity to listen to part one, I strongly encourage you to do would lead some really nice foundations for the conversation we're going to have today, though it's not essential if you're just coming to part two first. No worries. But we talked a lot about connection and community and that being both a connection to oneself as well as to others. We defined what, really diversity means, it's that it's a much broader sort of definition than it is sometimes given in the zeitgeist these days. And we talked a lot about the work that we have to have as leaders in establishing our own mindset to [00:04:00] empower other people to do their own work. We have to do ours. And so coming into this conversation prepared to do some hard thinking. And you left us with two questions, which I have been spending a lot of time thinking about. One is, can I be comfortable with discomfort? And the second is, am I prepared to really question everything I know or think that I know as foundational to this conversation? Does that feel like where we left off? Is there anything we need to add? 

Dr. Joel: Yeah, that's some deep thinking. And hopefully, as people hear those questions, they can bring some grace and some compassion to those questions because it's a journey, it's a process and it's not a test. So it's something that hopefully people can hold with some gentility and also hold with some humility because that's what this work requires. 

Natasha Nuytten: Yeah. And I love that it is very iterative. [00:05:00] 

Dr. Joel: Yeah. 

Natasha Nuytten: Because how comfortable I am now is going to be different than how comfortable I might be six months from now. So I appreciate that context. It's really great. So today, I really want to spend most of our time talking about the Souls of Queer Folk, which is a beautiful book that you wrote about how we can learn from the queer community and how the wisdom that they have collectively, their cultural sort of foundations, can teach us about transformational leadership, which is really what we're here to talk about. I would like to ask you, though, I'd to actually start with one of the quotes from the book is that the lion's story will never be known as long as the hunter is the one to tell it. And I had never heard that proverb before. But being a mixed race woman growing up in the Midwest, like it immediately resonated like, [00:06:00] yeah, you can't know it until I've told it to you because we're going to make some assumptions. And some things are going to be left out. So I absolutely love that. And I'm curious, as you dove into writing the book, the Souls of Queer Folk, like how did that. How did that notion and that sort of proverb as a seed inform your work? 

Dr. Joel: A great question, as always. I realized that for most of my journey as a queer man, who I was being told to me voice by people who had no connection to the community, were not part of the community and had no familiarity with my life and also being African-American, having indigenous roots, same type of thing. And it became really frustrating for me because oftentimes when I would talk about and think about what does it mean to be gay? So as I was coming out, as I was coming into creation, as [00:07:00] they say, and I was thinking what is it that makes me a part of this community? Which then leads to the question, what is the community? What does it stand for? The answers were very disappointing. So they oftentimes relied on stereotypical notions, superficial ideas, prejudicial rhetoric that's been recycled over and over again. And not surprisingly, sometimes also recycled by people within the community, because that's how oppression works. We start to internalize the narrative that other people share with us. And so the reason why I began my research is because I wanted to answer that question in a more robust, thoughtful, detailed way. I said to myself, there has to be I know it in my bones. I feel it in my soul that being a member of the LGBTQ plus community has more to do than just same sex attraction, pronouns, bending the binary. Flipping traditional norms on their head, there's something more there. And what is it? And [00:08:00] oftentimes when it comes to marginalized communities, people are very comfortable doing kind of a superficial analysis and saying oh, this is just what it is. For example, people would say being gay means that you just you have sex with someone of the same sex. And I said that's an expression of the culture. That is a manifestation of it, but that's not the core value. And so then I had to get nerdy, because when you think about cultural values, you have to if you're going to do a really good job with any ethnographic study, there are the things that we call, the artifacts, the things that you can see just from the surface. For example, let's say you're seeing someone walking down the street, which you see them wearing is on the outside. And that gives you maybe a glimpse or an inkling of what they're about, but it doesn't tell you everything. And then there are the espoused values, the things that people say. But we know by virtue of living in this country, that there are things that are expressed that are not followed through on that are not we're not [00:09:00] living those values. For example, we talk about freedom and I don't see a whole lot of freedom happening right now. So then there are the basic values, the core values, the things that form the essence of what the culture is. And those are the things I really wanted to explore. And not surprisingly, there was very little research on these values or if they were discussed, it was tangential to some other studies. For example, there were a number of consumer studies in South America. What do you what does the LGBTQ community want? What do they spend their money on? Which, again, a very superficial analysis, but not getting to what exactly what you spend your money on is a function of a value. The spending of the money itself is not the value. So that's what led me to this in the desire to tell our narrative in a much more honest, authentic and comprehensive way so that we as a community could take control of the narrative and we could also stop or start dismantling some of the discrimination that is [00:10:00] based on these narratives, which are false and true and very false, untrue and very shallow. 

Natasha Nuytten: Yeah, I think I was amazed at how little research there was, and admittedly, being from having some of these identities that are often marginalized in various ways, right? I still had a moment of reminder for myself thinking I knew more than I did. And I think one of the things that you talk about in the book and something I want to define for everybody here is the inclusion paradox. And I think it happens to all of these groups of folks where like even, for instance, I was recently in Belize and someone was talking to me about Mayan culture. And, there's this belief that the Mayans just disappeared and they were wiped out. And this particular [00:11:00] person was, he's no, that's not what happened. Like they left. But this narrative that we have was that something happened to them and they all disappeared. And what was it and where did they go? And his perspective was as a Mayan whose family has been here for literally thousands and thousands of years, I have a very different perspective on that story. So to your point, the lion story being told very differently. There are some things that are. That we don't even realize we've absorbed right about something and whether or not they are true is entirely other the separate a separate sort of question. 

Dr. Joel: Exactly. And the singularity of the stories is done on purpose is done with intention. Because if I can and it's been done throughout history, if I can characterize you in a way that makes you seem inhuman, then it becomes easier for me to repress you, to oppress you. And we see that happening all over the world right now, where it's very comfortable and convenient to say this group is lazy, [00:12:00] poor, they're trying to hurt our economy, they're terrorists, whatever, wherever, whatever region you're looking at around the world, that narrative is part of the propaganda that then makes the oppression easier to sustain and to maintain. And I think as, marginalized communities, we have a responsibility to constantly interrogate those narratives, even when we feel like, oh, I feel like I got this. And so even for myself, I didn't just come out yesterday. I've been out for quite some time and I had to say to myself, it's actually 30 years. So I had to say to myself, I need to approach this as any good researcher with curiosity. I can't come into this inquiry thinking that there's a preordained destination. I have to step back and say, let me just go into this as though I was going to, quote unquote, queer world or queer land and see what I find out. And some of it, quite frankly, a [00:13:00] lot of it, a friend would already knew some of the my own biases, my own, let's say, internalized cisgenderism or some of my own internalized heterosexism. So I had to really be honest with that. And I'm so glad I did, because it helped me to do my own healing and it helped me to understand the three dimensional nature of our culture, as opposed to that, two dimensional, sometimes that one dimensional idea that most people think about when they think about the queer community, even among allies. So I've had people say, oh, I've been to Pride or, I'll go to, for example, I was in Cleveland last year at their community center and they were saying that oftentimes when people come over there and ask about the activities, the first thing people think of is, oh, people are there drag shows hosted here? And what I love about the community center response was we as a community do a lot more than drag. There's nothing wrong with drag. So in case anybody hears this and they want to cancel me, [00:14:00] I'm not saying at all there's anything wrong with drag. But again, we are more than just the simple, singular narrative. And we are involved in a number of different things. And so when we can acknowledge that, it gives greater breadth to our full humanity, which is what we need, because you have a lot of people who may have this very narrow view. And I was one of them. And I think for years I struggled thinking I'm really not LGBTQ. I'm really not gay. I'm really not queer, because what was portrayed was very, again, narrow, very focused, a very focused definition that didn't really apply to me. And so for probably, I would say, three to four years, I spent some time wandering and, on this existential journey trying to figure out what is it? Who am I? What does this mean? And where do I belong? In part because the way that queerness was defined didn't match who I was and didn't match my life experience. 

Natasha Nuytten: Yeah, I really appreciate that, because one of the things [00:15:00] that I have thought for myself for quite some time that I think you articulated really nicely in your book is that, when we talk about culture, there's this really fine line, right? Because we're talking about a community of humans made up of all individual people. And so it is there is this fine line. And I think it's one place that people who are doing the work of inclusion, belonging, equity, diversity, justice of any sort, and people who are wanting to understand it. There can be this gray space in between of OK, on the one hand, you want to tell me that there's this culture I'm supposed to respect, and then the other, you want me to say you're an individual and you're more than the thing. So how do I get to there is this sort of umbrella of things that can be defined, for instance, around [00:16:00] culture with respect to the fact that, OK, then within it, there's just every shade and every version of that lives within it. And so I'd love to talk a little bit about how you define culture as you were doing this work for the book in particular. 

Dr. Joel: Sure. When we think about culture. What we're essentially. Referencing are those norms, values, customs and practices that are shared by a particular group, some people refer to them as the collective programming the ways in which we operate in the world, the ways in which we see the world, the ways in which we experience ourselves in relationship to the world. I think what's important to your point about at the same time acknowledging commonality, but also honoring individuality is that values by themselves can be expressed in many different ways. And so that's why it's really important to get to the values, because as long as you have a superficial analysis that says, for example, I'm going to use a stereotype. All black people like to dance. So [00:17:00] then what then comes up then is a person who might say as a young black or African-American person I don't like to dance, so therefore I'm not part of the community. And so that analysis is a disservice to all groups. And I think we have to go back to the basics. For example, when we talk about and I'll speak to another community that I belong to. So if we're thinking about the African-American community, there is a collectivism, right? There's this idea of there's a community mindedness. There's the idea that as I move up, I'm lifting as I climb. I'm not just leaving other people there. Now, the question becomes, how does that get expressed? So I, being Joel, may express my value of community differently than you. For example, one of the things I love to do with my friends and loved ones is I'll send love taps because I have, family and friends all over the world and I can always have a long [00:18:00] conversation with them. But I can send them love taps to say, thinking about you, love you, we'll, catch up with you soon. And that's it. Now, another person may say that's not the way that I express community for them. Community may be let's break bread, let's sit down, have a meal together. Others, they may have a prayer group. So I think people have to go beyond this idea of sameness and recognize that it's not about being the same. It's about having some correlative behaviors or values that are linked and aligned with each other, but allow for people to express them, because, of course, every individual has their own culture and we have close to what, a billion people on this rock. So every person is able to show up and be their own individual selves. And within that, they may subscribe to a certain value, they may not. And that's the other thing that's really important to recognize that even as a member of a particular community, that doesn't mean that I accept all the values. Or I have the same level of loyalty or [00:19:00] faithfulness. Again, we live in the States. This is a capitalistic country. And like a lot of people, I will go out and I will buy. And, there's a certain occupation, with trying to amass wealth so you can take care of yourself. But at the same time, if we go to, let's say, a target, if you're rolling back DEI, then I need to make sure that I don't spend my money there because I have the value of supporting diversity, equity, inclusion. I want to support the community and I want to make sure that my dollars go someplace else, because for me, it's not just about money. It's about equity and social justice and racial justice. So for some, some Americans, and I'm sure there was a commercial that came out years ago during the Super Bowl where people were saying, we're Americans, we grind, we don't take days off. We work work, and we drive ourselves to the bone. And I remember watching that commercial thinking this is sick to me. I don't identify with that. But there are some Americans who will. There's some Americans who are going to look at the flag and think, get choked [00:20:00] up and become emotional and be captivated by it does not have the same impact or effect on me. In fact, I don't feel the same connection with the American flag. So my patriotism is in lending critique of the American system. So my patriotism shows up by saying this country needs to do better, not only by its own citizens, but by the global citizens. That's how my patriotism shows up. So that's how we can see how you can have similar values, but you can express them differently, which doesn't mean that you're disconnected, more attenuated from other people. Just like when you have a family system, there's my mom, there's my dad, there's my siblings, there's my aunt, there's my uncle. We share some things in common, our genes and facial features or the like.

Dr. Joel: ways of being, but there's some things that are going to be different because I'm my own unique person. And I think that's where we have to be careful with cultural conversations. And I get why it happens because people want to make sure that culture is not erased. It's not compromised. [00:21:00] And so you get what I call these cultural caretakers or guardians who will say this is what it means out of a desire to make sure that the culture doesn't get diluted. But when you do that, you actually create more of a kind of a restriction, a prison where people, the culture stagnates and doesn't become more or doesn't expand and continue to evolve. And so culture is one of those tricky things that we all have it. Very few of us understand how it operates and how it impacts us. And I would say probably all of us are probably not as aware of how many cultures do impact us and shape us and influence us on a given day. So it's a very complex and fascinating thing. And it's the very thing that I've dedicated my life to studying and figuring out how we bridge differences between culture. 

Natasha Nuytten: So a lot to unpack there. And I think we'll dive into what some of those values are and how they show up. [00:22:00] I would really like to, before we move on, have a discussion a little bit about how that inclusion paradox that we were talking about and how it relates to how you've just defined culture and how we think we may understand it. Can you give us a little context for what inclusion paradox is and how it might impact the way we approach the work of adjusting our own mindsets? 

Dr. Joel: So the inclusion paradox is the idea that, and I want to make sure I give credit to one of my mentors. I think Bernardo Ferdman may have coined this phrase. Hi, Bernardo, if you're listening. So the inclusion paradox is the idea that as you promote facilitating inclusion, there will become a point where inclusion is no longer possible because some of the people who you're including perhaps do not support the inclusion or support some of the ideas, the people that you're trying to include. So therefore, [00:23:00] in support of the larger idea, the larger theme, there are some people you may exclude because they do not, they're not fully bought into this idea of inclusion. So some people will say, for example that's not being inclusive. If it's designed to protect the larger safety of a system and a community, it is so and that's where you may get into more of the equity piece. So there's a difference between the inclusion and the equity piece. Do I want to include, for example, people have different views? Absolutely. But do I want to have someone in a system, for example, who tells me that not only do they not LGBTQ people, but LGBTQ people should be subjected to violence and harassment? Then that very thing goes against the grain of inclusion. I can't include you, for example, in the workplace if your goal, your aim is to not only question the existence of queer people, but to harm queer people. So that's part of the paradox where it can also work in terms of the cultural conversations is that in our desire [00:24:00] to include everybody, then the boundary as to what constitutes that culture becomes diluted. So let me give you an example of how this works. So there are a number of people, for example, who are part of the Gen Z. We've seen some studies who really don't want to identify with any type of quote unquote label. So they'll say, yeah, I'm not going to tell you or I'm not going to tell you that I'm heterosexual or homosexual or bisexual. I don't agree with the whole LGBTQ acronym. I just love people and I'm creative and I'm open and wherever life may take me. Here's where it becomes interesting, because in terms of honoring voices, in terms of honoring experience, a person may very well say, hey, this is how I feel. I feel different from the norm. I don't, I shun labels and [00:25:00] these boxes. So therefore I identify with the queer community, which is what queer means. Queer means going against the grain, going against what society deems to be normal. But then again, the challenge is when you're talking to people in the community who have formed this allegiance and this connection with the community based on some very real experiences, based on, let's say, pain, sometimes trauma, sometimes joy, sometimes really digging into the soil and having, carried the weight of what the community is or having studied what the transcendence have taught us. It may seem very disingenuous and it may seem disrespectful for someone who has a tangential relationship with the community to say I'm now part of the community simply because they feel or identify with one of the values. So that's where the inclusion paradox comes. The same way, for example, that, and I forget her name at this point, we had the lady who, she was wearing basically dark face or black face. [00:26:00] 

Natasha Nuytten: Rachel 

Dr. Joel: Dolezal. 

Natasha Nuytten: Yeah. Yeah. 

Dr. Joel: I think that's her name. And she was saying I'm black. And I was like that's interesting. Now, if you just put on some makeup or some paint, you're now saying that you're part of the community, which again, disrespects the experiences of people because we don't get to just wipe off that makeup or stop taking supplements or avoiding the tanning salon in order to be part of the community. So that's where the inclusion paradox may show up is yes, you want everybody to feel included. And I'm very much one, for example, I've grown up with friends who are biracial and I've had people be told well, you're half black and you're half white. And I said to one of my friends, no, you're a hundred percent black and you're a hundred percent European. You're not half anything. You don't have to pass some racial purity test to be part of the community. So I think we definitely need to make sure that we're not being too strict. I myself will tell you, I've had [00:27:00] all sorts of people tell me that I'm not black enough for any number of reasons. That's a whole different topic. But when there are people who have really no connection to the community, there's a difference between being in the community and having an affinity for the community. And I think that's where there could be some danger if people don't realize the responsibility and the care with which you have to maintain and honor the community and the culture that you're a part of. Culture is a fluid thing. It's a dynamic thing. It's a growing thing. And so whether we believe it or not, each of us I think is entrusted to expand and to help it grow and to help nurture that culture so that it can be passed on to future generations. Because in that culture, there are lessons, there's wisdom, there's knowledge, there's ways of being, there's arts and crafts or just ways of operating that have not only added contribution to the [00:28:00] world, but have also helped to ensure that we survive. So something as simple as my grandfather passing down the knowledge, hey, if you get pulled over by a white police officer, here are the things that you need to do. That's going to ensure survival of me, but it also should ensure survival of the culture. Why? Because you have less people being attacked, harassed, or unfortunately being killed. That's where it comes up. And so I worry when people are being very fast and loose with this whole idea of culture, and I'm not here to tell anyone what their level or how black or queer or anything else that they are, but just recognizing that it's not something that you just choose into or you just opt into. It's something that is part of your being and part of your essence, whether you acknowledge it or not. 

Natasha Nuytten: Yeah, I think that's really insightful. And as we start to walk into what I want to think about today is really thinking about some of the wisdom around the values that are embedded [00:29:00] in queer culture that can help lay a foundation for transformational leadership, because they really are, to the point you were making earlier about, for instance, us as Americans and thinking about the idea of freedom, there are shared values that we have across a lot of cultures, and some of them are very reflected in queer culture. There are others that are brighter spots in queer culture than they might be in others. And so I think understanding them, but all of them, there's not one of those values on that list that doesn't help when thinking about how can I lead better? How can I create an environment for more people to be their best selves, for us to get the best out of our company and out of our business, which is the end objective there. So in thinking about that, just for folks who maybe haven't yet read the book, I strongly recommend, there's a section in which you talk [00:30:00] about, first, there's a group of values that came out of the study that you did, both qualitative and quantitative, and really thinking about what are some of the things that unite this very diverse group of humans that are all within this community. And then those 15 values, and I'll talk through them a little bit, rolled up then to some of these meta themes. And those meta themes were really the ones that you pulled on to think about how they inform leadership. So for those of you who've not read it, I think, again, there will be a lot here that you won't necessarily, that you'll say, yeah, that makes sense, right? But we can't all be for everything. And so being able to identify and narrow these down, I think was really helpful. So thinking about equity around fairness and justice, diversity, inclusion, and really that being not only demographic, but philosophical and creating space for those differences. [00:31:00] Community, which is a word we've used a lot today and previously, and really fostering those connections and creating connections and confidants and associates and building that for themselves. Creativity around being imaginative and having a bit of a flair or panache, right? Pride. And in such a way, like we, I think, to your point, like we've defined pride in a particular way around the queer community, but really thinking about it more broadly and that it's really just an unflinching recognition of who I am as a human being and being forthright about showing up in that way. Self-realization, but like doing the work to be your best self. Sex positivity. And that is, again, something that I think the idea of maybe has been hijacked a little bit or taken over to mean something else. But the reality is it just means [00:32:00] that it's a normal, healthy part of the human experience that should be valued. Thinking about gender fluidity is not so much, to your point, it's, there's a lot of conversation around the words and the identities that people might select. But thinking about the fact that there's a sort of presentation and sensibilities and worldview that is associated with that and having that be nonconforming, which is another of the values, right? Existing to, or challenging the existing norms and traditions. Agency, really embracing empowerment to take my own personal power to make my world safe and to make it how I need it to be. Perceptiveness, freedom, nurturing and care for others and self. Resilience and then zest and an exuberance for life. Those [00:33:00] were the big values I think that you found, those 15 that seemed to really come out of things. And then those rolled up to these themes that I wanted to dig into a little bit, but I want to set them out here for everybody. Really, justice. That's where that inclusion, diversity, equity kind of roll into each other. Thinking about authenticity, embracing of who one is. I love that you used the word verve, right? It's such a, it is such a word that has its own unique flair to it. But really that resilience and confluence of spirit and enthusiasm. Resilience, perceptiveness, sex positivity, perceptiveness, interconnectedness, non-binary thinking, and then creativity were the nine sort of themes. 

Dr. Joel: And actually the sex positivity was somatic awareness. Somatic 

Natasha Nuytten: [00:34:00] awareness. Yeah, somatic 

Dr. Joel: awareness. Thank you. 

Natasha Nuytten: Okay. I know it was more layered than that, so I appreciate that. Okay. So with that said, would love to dig into what each of those sort of queer wisdoms can teach us about transformational leadership. So let's start with justice and where that is foundational. 

Dr. Joel: Yeah. And I smile as we talk about this because it's not a foregone conclusion for a number of leaders that justice is a component of transformational leadership, right? I've had a number of conversations with leaders, not only in the workplace, in the corporate space, but also in the world who are thinking how was justice show up? It's all about fairness. It's all about making sure that everybody is cared for and that people are able to live life without fear of reprisal or recrimination, [00:35:00] making sure that there's a clear rule book for everyone and that everybody's able to abide by that to the best of their ability and that we take into account social and historical circumstances. That was what fairness is. And it goes beyond that. It's not just the recognition of justice, but it's the advocation for justice. So here we are. It's February, was it 25th? February 25th, 2025. And every generation, I think, has its wake up call where you're being asked to embody these ideas, to move beyond the depression, some of the learned helplessness and to say, what are you going to do? Now, where we struggle sometimes, at least I've seen people struggle thinking that everybody's activism needs to show up the same way. But what the first thing that has to happen before you are you take agency is you have to be aware [00:36:00] and activated within your own consciousness that, number one, what is happening to others around the world, what's happening to people in my environment, what's happening to people who are different than me is also very much impacting me. It is also very much a reflection of who I am, is reflection of what my values are, what my needs are. So which is interesting because we're living in a position right now or in a place right now where there's isolationism. So we're hearing a lot of leaders and people who are part of this regime say we want to isolate and just focus on the US when I think there is a duty and obligation to not turn a blind eye and a deaf ear to what's happening around the world, especially where you can lend support and help and kindness to a particular situation, especially if your country or your government has helped to create the very conditions that have existed. So it is first recognizing that very piece. But then it's also taking a step further, going beyond simply the cerebral, the academic, the mental to say, I have a responsibility to do more. How that looks is going to be different. But to activate one's [00:37:00] self to say, how can I be in service of humanity? How can I be in service of the people around me? How can I make sure? Now, sometimes when we think of justice, it might be the idea that people need something. And so the commodity, the product, the service is there to help bring equality, bring equity. Or it might mean that as you're operating within a system and you're looking to produce or provide a service or a commodity or a product, you realize that the distribution is not equitable. The access is not equitable. The ways in which people can use it are not equitable, whether it's making sure that you have access, entering into a building or making sure that for example, if you are designing a phone, that people who are visually impaired or people who come from different languages and different cultures can access it and also benefit from the features that you've offered. So that's where the idea of being activated comes from, but then taking it a step further and the thing that I, and I'll give you an example of this that really is troubling to me. And I think, [00:38:00] and I hope we're waking, we're coming out of it right now. I'm hearing so many people right now say, we need leaders. We need somebody else to lead us. And part of being activated and part of being clear in your consciousness is that you recognize your own power. You recognize that you have power and agency to affect change. Yes. And if working in concert or working collectively, you can also bring more power to bear on the system in the world, but that doesn't negate or ignore or dismiss your opportunity to exude power at some point, because each of us has power. And the reason and the way in which these systems maintain themselves is as soon as people can see their power, capitulate or believe that no power exists on their behalf. So when you're a transformational leader, it is the can do attitude. It is, we can make possible what is not possible. We can bring into fruition and creation. Something that we haven't seen before, whether that's an idea, a [00:39:00] product or a service, that is a form of power. That is a form of agency, but also means that we're going to connect people in a way that we haven't done before. And we're going to operate in a way that's going to be fair and just, whether it's into the environment, whether it's to the communities, whether it's to our colleagues, the people we work with, but we're doing so for the greater good of the globe of the planet of humanity. Many people will tell you that's not part of their consideration or the part of their calculus for transformational leadership. And that's fine. But then I would say to them, and I would say to anyone, then that's not the type of transformational leader that I want. I want someone who's not just thinking about profit margin, market share money. I want someone who's thinking how does this actually help people and how am I operating in the way so that I'm not bringing harm to people. In fact, I'm helping to liberate people. This is a quality of the LGBTQ community that we've had since day one. Yes. Born out of necessity, but also that fighting spirit to say we refuse to be silenced. There's a number of stickers and buttons that you'll [00:40:00] see in the community. Some of them harken back to the seventies and eighties silence equals death. Exactly. So in order for me to give breath and to honor my own light, I have to speak up. It's not a question. It's not an option for me to extinguish myself, to swallow myself, to suppress myself because in doing so I am facilitating my own mental, emotional, spiritual death. So therefore I have an obligation only for myself, but for other people to speak up, to be activated in my consciousness and to be activated in my actions, to make sure that fairness is meted out broadly and comprehensively, no matter what system we're operating in. 

Natasha Nuytten: Yeah. Wow. There's a, there is an obligation. I love that you have laid out examples, both from the business service side of the work of a leader, but also the for the people who are working with me side of the [00:41:00] thing, because it isn't just one or the other. It is a both and for sure. So in thinking about how that justice serves and how we show up there, it actually leads, I think very nicely into the second one in that you're saying that, that isn't there for everybody. Like justice isn't necessarily one of the things people are focused on or willing to embrace as part of transformational leadership, but that's really the second piece, which is that authenticity, right? Like really being thoughtful about who I am, how I show up, what I am willing to do as a leader, what I am not willing to make a priority as a leader.

Natasha Nuytten: That is something that we, in my experience, that I love so much about my friends who are in the queer community, that there is a commitment to showing up [00:42:00] and being the version of yourself that is becoming. We've talked about that earlier because that's a process, but being the you that you are, and having that person be as consistent as possible, I will say, because to your point earlier in our first conversation, you used the phrase, I don't expect somebody to be their Sunday morning self or their Friday night club self at work, and they are all the same person, and so there is that showing up piece. Can we talk a little bit about some of the ways that we see this wisdom around authenticity and how you start to embrace it? 

Dr. Joel: Yeah, it's, I remember, I think I talked about this in the book, going to some consultancy meet up in the Bay Area with some high [00:43:00] profile guy who had coached hundreds of consultants to help take their practice to the seven figure level, and I was in the room and trying to see if that was something I really wanted to be a part of, and I was watching everybody emulate Dave, we'll just call him Dave, right? And so if Dave talked with a certain edge, you saw these people talk with a certain edge, and if Dave had a certain posture, they took on a certain posture, and if Dave cracked a certain joke, then they would try to crack similar jokes or pretend like the joke that Dave cracked was actually funny, and I thought to myself as I was watching this, we have misunderstood the assignment. The assignment is not, at least for me, to come and be like Dave. I can't be like Dave, and that's the beauty of who we are, is that we will never be able to escape from who we [00:44:00] are. Now, that's the beauty of authenticity. Now, where I think we have to have a mature perspective of authenticity does not mean, however, that you have to show all of yourself or the same parts of yourself all the time. So I started this call talking about my different superpowers or whatnot that are diminished because I'm not feeling 100%. We all have a range of tools and resources. For example, I like to think that when I walk in a room, the thing that really serves me well is I'm very intuitive. I can pick up energy. I know that there are times when I need to speak because I know that I also have the gift of saying what needs to be said at the right time, but that doesn't mean that I need to use all those tools or those two tools simultaneously or in every situation. Sometimes me being authentic is saying, in this particular context, and this goes into the perceptiveness, which we'll talk about later, in this particular context, in this particular system, it's not going to be best for me to speak up. In fact, it's probably going to be best for [00:45:00] me to keep a low profile. And I remember I learned this when I was doing some work in South Africa. So I was working with some colleagues from around the world and many of them were junior and many of them didn't have as much experience. So everybody was looking to me. But for the good of the group, I realized that I had to be quiet because otherwise the group would not grow. The group would not evolve. It would end up being a situation where I'm simply giving my thoughts and opinions. And in any situation, other people might see things differently and there might be insights that they have that are more spot on than anything that I perceive. So I took a step back. That is a form of authenticity. And sometimes people assume that, authenticity means that you have to be a hundred percent of yourself a hundred percent of the time. And I'll say, no, there are times where, for example, Wonder Woman or Batman or whomever, they're not using all of their powers. They're using the power that is best suited for the [00:46:00] particular situation. So the authenticity has to have an element of, has to be strategic. It has to be savvy. And I think, and recognizing too, that just because you are who you are today, doesn't mean that you are the best version of yourself. So authenticity also means entertaining and recognizing that you can grow. And so sometimes when you work with leaders or sometimes when you're talking with family or friends or you're working in the community, there can be the sense of, and I'm sure you've heard this too. This is just who I am. And I've said that at times that I had to say to myself at one point, but there's a better version of yourself that you can be. And maybe that's who I was a year ago. But as of today, Joel can be somebody different. I can be better because hopefully each of us is growing and embodies a growth mindset, which is also very much a part of authenticity, recognizing that we're fluid. Our journey is evolving, ever changing. We can become different. So those are just some of the nuances with authenticity. And I think too, again, with the community, I think people realize that, if you think [00:47:00] about the journey of coming out and being LGBTQ, your reality may shift. Your identity may shift. You're no less authentic when you are, let's say you come out, but you've only told a few people, then let's say if you are leading your ERG in your workplace, or if you decide to come out to everybody, there are times where you might need to, based on your circumstance, authenticity changes. And there might be situations where, you know, yeah, I remember working in a law firm and I didn't disclose that I was LGBTQ. And someone might say you're not being authentic. I was being authentic to the part of myself that wanted to maintain my safety. I had a long-term vision. I didn't have a short-term vision. I didn't try to, I certainly held on to the parts of my personality that were there, but there were things I had to do to make sure that I could actually get an offer. I can actually, be successful down the road. So it's just making sure that when we think about authenticity, recognizing that authenticity, again, it can [00:48:00] be, a person can be authentic in many different ways and recognizing that all of us have a kind of a Rolodex of resources and powers and tools that we bring to it. And depending on the situation, our authenticity might relate to one value in one context, as opposed to another value in a different context. 

Natasha Nuytten: Yeah there's so much to impact there because I think that sometimes people think, if you aren't all the biggest parts of yourself in every situation that you haven't shown up, but to your point, I appreciate the example that you shared that sometimes there are things that are important, like safety. And so I am going to be true to myself in making sure that I'm okay. And that's an example. And I think that when you are not from especially as a leader, thinking about if we're not from one of the communities that has been historically [00:49:00] marginalized, or we haven't experienced that, even if we are or aren't, we've not experienced that othering, then it is sometimes difficult to wrap our heads around why someone is not feeling safe, right? Like, why would you, why would that even be a concern, right? If you haven't had to, if you haven't been in that boat. And so I think that's one place where we see, we can see that rub up against reality or experience. One's experienced reality is maybe a better way of saying that. 

Dr. Joel: And I would say too, just going back to the original point. 

Natasha Nuytten: Please. 

Dr. Joel: Each of us has our, has to find our own way to be who we are. And sometimes within our communities, plural, again, there'll be this group speak or group think that says this is the way that you have to show up to be blank. And you're never going to be able to be someone else, no matter how hard you try, no matter what technology resources you have, you're always going to be you. So you may as well get, may as well get [00:50:00] on with it, the business of being you. And so what I say to people is, especially like when I teach my storytelling classes or whatnot, and people say, I want to speak like you. I'm like, no, not because you need to speak like me, but because that's not what your power is. Your power is honoring your own voice, your own essence, your own way of thinking and being, that's where your power is. I can't be you. You can't be me, nor should you want to be me, bring what you have to the table because each of us has our own, superhero, super hero, super person talents that we can bring to bear on the world. So I wish more people learned that. And like I said, even the reason I like to share that story of the consultant meeting or meet up is because here you have people in their forties and fifties and they were succumbing to peer pressure. Everybody was trying to out Dave, and it just, it failed miserably for a number of people. And I said to myself, I can't and don't want to be this person. I have to be myself. And I think that's, that was a good early lesson for me as I built my companies. Remember be [00:51:00] yourself, whatever that is, and own your strengths, be aware of your weaknesses, but own your strengths and use those to achieve your core objectives. 

Natasha Nuytten: Yeah, 100%. I think that there is a one of the truths in that is that for a long time having grown up in a community where I was one of very few people who looked like me and I was a little darker when I was a kid. So I looked a little bit and I had a little, it was the seventies. So I also was running around with no braids. It was just all curly, crazy hair beautiful curls, but it was a I thought, and to the point of the conversation we were having earlier, there were some things I embraced about how I grew up that I thought meant I didn't know how to do something. So I remember going to college and one of the things I really wanted to get out of my experience was to find, excuse me, find people who looked like me so I could figure out what I didn't [00:52:00] know about being that. 

Natasha Nuytten: And there was a reality that yet there might be something for me to learn from that culture, but it wasn't natural and authentic to who I was either. And that it was okay that my experience was not that experience and that I could bring something unique, based on that. But sometimes it takes time to, to embrace that. Okay. Our third our third wisdom I'm starting to call them the wisdoms. I know you've called them meta themes, but I'm in our third one is is verb, which is really this sort of coming together of enthusiasm and spirit and passion maybe vigor. Yeah. So can we talk about that a little bit? Yeah. 

Dr. Joel: It's premise on this whole idea that energy is contagious. And when you bring an element of positivity, joy, a unique flair to whatever you do that energy again, impacts and influences other people. So that you have this joyous [00:53:00] work civic community experience that everybody wants to be a part of their body and clamors for that. Everybody says, this is something I want more of on whether it's daily, monthly, or some some other frequency and the community, embodies that. So there's an element of exuberance and I don't mean, for example, again what some people may be thinking of is something stereotypical or something that they may see at a pride parade, but it just means having the joie de vivre, appreciation for life, which I think is understated and underappreciated not only of the LGBTQ community, but within the LGBTQ community. And the reason why it's important is when you're dealing with difficult times and when you've dealt with as much discrimination and bias and oppression, as we have as a community to still show up with, this is me, this is my joy. I have a smile on my face. You will not be able to take this from me is something that I think everybody should want to emulate. I could use some of that now. And it's in this moment right now where I've had [00:54:00] to really call that forward. I've had to invoke that to say, yeah, I'm scared about the direction of the country and the world. And when I say scared, capital S scared, and how can I still show up and bring some light? Because when we able to introduce positivity and joy, then we help to introduce the idea that things, there can be a different reality. I'm sure you come from that. You and I are contemporaries. So you come from that era where people used to say, keeping it real. And so the problem with that phrase, which I used to say all the time is keeping it real is based on one of the version of reality. So sometimes we will say, keeping it real is based on things are falling apart and, we have government agencies that are being emptied out and we have people being deported. And yes, that is real, but reality is not just the negative reality is the positive. So we can also acknowledge that there's good, there's joy, there's peace, there's something good taking place, whether it's just the single mother, who's still getting up every single day, getting on the bus, going to [00:55:00] work and able to provide for the young child or the trans person on the street who is been resourceful enough to still find something to eat, take care of themselves and has extracted themselves from a situation that was dangerous and unhealthy for them. What it reinforces for us, what it reinforces for the brain is that there are possibilities, there are options, there are different realities out there that we can be a part of. We don't have to accept this one reality that is negative. We don't have to accept one reality that is somber or something that appears perilous. We can also recognize that there are other ways of being and, just on a quote unquote, real level, who doesn't want to be somewhere and around people who are feeling good and bring that lightness and that positive energy. And that's not to say that we should encourage toxic positivity, because, you can have people who, no matter what is being said I had a friend who used to do this all the time where you say something, it's like I know that, [00:56:00] you didn't get that job, but, at least you're, you have more prospects than, 2 billion people on this planet. And I know that you're feeling sick, but at least you don't have some terminal disease. And at that point, it's okay, you're what you're doing is minimizing. You're not empathizing, but this is different. This is recognizing that joy, flare verb can be inspirational, can be energizing, can help us thinking and focus on possibility and tap into that wellspring of joy that allows us to still act and to be, and to operate with this notion that life can and will be good. If we simply apply ourselves, if we certainly take on a certain energy and we know this from our own history, we know that African Americans, for example, and queer people have come from some very dark unfortunate circumstances. And we've been able to get to where we are in large part because of our faith, our optimism and our irrepressibility. That's what I mean when I'm talking about that flare, that [00:57:00] verb is bringing energy, joy, beauty into the world and using that as a way to motivate and inspire others. 

Natasha Nuytten: It's way more fun to follow somebody who's, got a thing, got that energy than it is to, than it is to get in line behind somebody who's a Debbie Downer, 

Dr. Joel: and it's interesting because I was just having this conversation with my husband and what were we going to do? We were, I think we had to go to the grocery store, which is his least favorite thing. And so it was mine. And he said to me, why are you seem all bouncy, like what's going on with you? You're all over the place. And I said, everything we do can be an adventure. And so I said, what I want to build for our family is when, even when we go to the grocery store, I'm not trying to be in there for two hours, but when we go to the grocery store, we can bring an element of fun, of joy to what we do. And sure enough, he's not going to dance down the aisles, but, by [00:58:00] me being playful and me bringing that energy, it was able to change the tone of what was a monotonous activity to something where we could actually bond. And we actually were able to catch up and talk in ways that we hadn't because we both, get busy. And again, the LGBTQ community brings that verb, not just during pride, not just during some holiday, but that's one of the things I really love about our communities that you meet people who are LGBTQ and it's not everyone, but there's this element of flair that I like and flair can be show up in many different ways, but there's this energy that is infectious and it's energizing and it's healing too. Yeah. 

Natasha Nuytten: I love it. All right. The next one, resilience. You've touched on that a little bit as just some of these, they are interwoven just a little bit, right? And I think resilience is one of those that sort of permeates all [00:59:00] of these. But is there anything in particular you'd like to talk, you'd like to call out about that? 

Dr. Joel: Yeah. As I'm thinking about it, I think the only thing I would call out about resilience is that it's not a one stop thing, or it's not a one shop deal. So resilience is not something that you do once and you're like, okay, I'm done and I'm good to go. You probably will have to draw on those lessons time and time again. So when I work with senior leaders, for example, one of the things I asked them to do is get in touch with their stories and they'll say what do you mean my stories? And I say how did you get here? And you didn't just get here because you studied hard and because you had a good interview, there were many hills that you had to climb. There were many valleys that you had to walk through to get here. And that same resilience, that same reservoir of resilience is what will serve you now. So it's helping people to understand that resilience is something that we have to use over and over again. And it's something that's all around us. We use resilience [01:00:00] probably more often than we think we do. If you're in New York, I can't tell you how many times the train is late or it's on the wrong track, or it's not making a stop at the place where I need to be. That's a form of resilience. If it's watching the news and hearing the person who's supposed to be the head of the country denigrate your community and still walking down the street with a sense of pride and purpose, that also is resilience. So I think just recognizing that resilience is not some supernatural talent. I've heard different thought leaders talk about grit and they've come up with these different ways of talking about resilience. And I think we've tried to create it and make it out to be some superhuman thing when it's something that if we really understand what resilience is, which is the ability to not be diminished in the face of hardship, whatever the hardship might be, then we can see it as something that we all have, we all utilize. And if we remember those occasions, then we'll be able to apply that same quality of resilience going forward. And of course, again, the queer community is, no community has shown more [01:01:00] resilience perhaps in our community. And so it's something that I think people need to realize that when things don't go your way, I always love it when you interview people and you say to them, what's something that you do well and that what's something that you struggle with? And the answer I hear a lot of times is on the latter piece. I struggle with change. I struggle with emergencies or things that are uncontrollable surprises. Who doesn't, who does like surprises? And I'm not talking about the good surprises, but the negative surprises. So what are you going to do when things are thrown your way, like a COVID, like an election gone awry or what have you, it could simply be a matter of you went into work and all of a sudden you had your plan laid out for the day and you've been put into an emergency meeting that you didn't realize because your company's being reorganized or because your client is upset. So resilience is something that is available to all of us. And it's definitely been the hallmark of the queer community. 

Natasha Nuytten: Yeah. I would add to that. One of the things we've we talk a lot about resilience in [01:02:00] our company. We do actually can help companies look.

Natasha Nuytten: for that in folks, because I do think it's an important quality, and I think it needs to be respected in that you don't hire people who are resilient because you intend to beat them over the head every day and make things hard, right? We have to recognize it is an important quality. Those are our folks we can lean on when things get hard to maybe have some of that verve, maybe have some of that we are going to get through this, we are not going to be knocked down sideways, and we have to also take care of those folks because it gets exhausting always being the person who is maybe driving that train or leading that charge or that parade. So I do think it's- I go back to 

Dr. Joel: a phrase that someone shared with me once, which is rocks get tired too. So there are, I'm sure in families, in friendship circles, there's always one person who you can go to for advice, wisdom, there's always [01:03:00] a person to turn everybody up. They can always give you a pep talk, but rocks get tired. And so I love what you said of not creating this perfectionist model for people where people are always being in some ways exploited for always being the resilient ones, but recognize that it has to be a shared responsibility, right? 

Natasha Nuytten: Absolutely. 

Dr. Joel: Absolutely. 

Natasha Nuytten: Absolutely. Okay. We still have five of these to go. So I want to be thoughtful about not taking too much of your time and doing so as we learn. So sex positivity, semantic awareness, that's one I'd love for you to give us a little bit of education on and how we can not only be more thoughtful with the folks around us and creating safe spaces for our queer colleagues and friends and loved ones, but how does that impact our ability to lead groups? 

Dr. Joel: Yeah. So in terms of somatic [01:04:00] awareness oh, sorry. Yeah. No worries. I knew when people read the book that there was going to be this beta breath moment of saying, okay, Dr. Joel, we're with you. We're going to explore this. We're going to be curious. So how are you going to tell us that being sex positive is part of transformational leadership? And what I first talked about in the book is the fact that I think if we have a healthier attitude towards sex and sexuality, we can actually promote and secure workplaces that have less harassment, less biased. And recognizing that when people work in close quarters for 12 hours a day, 10 hours a day, it's natural that people might develop some type of romantic feelings. They might develop an affinity for someone, but how, but not ignoring that, but addressing that as a way of making sure that people feel safe, particularly women and people who identify as women. But there's that. If we go deeper, recognizing that sexuality, sensuality is really about being paying attention to what's in the body. And in the [01:05:00] Western society, we have maybe, we've built history on disavowing anything of the body because the body is seen as being dirty. The body is seen as being less than, is seen as being disruptive or robbing us of our faculties, our logic, and our ability to reason. And what I say in that is paying attention to the body also helps you to pay attention to your intuition. It helps you to pick up certain cues. It helps you to realize when you're getting information from your environment, how it might be affecting you. And I know that there've been situations for myself where what I'm seeing, what I'm hearing is not necessarily what's giving me the cue that something is going in a great direction or something that's going in a negative direction. It's really retraining ourselves to recognize that we can learn from all aspects of our being. So it doesn't always have to depend on what we see or what we hear [01:06:00] or what we read, which is very much a European way of thinking about things is that our only knowledge comes from what we can see, read, write, and research, but also being in tune with our bodies. So what I would invite people to think about as transformational leaders is how can you make more space for intuition? What are the cues that you might pick up on that you probably ignore? Many of us, we talk about this in regular parlance. We say, I had this feeling in my gut. And the thing that I always say to people is, how many times do you have that feeling in your gut and you ignore it? And then what happens when you don't? And I know, again, as a young consultant, just as a young person, I got into all sorts of trouble because I ignored the feelings and sensations in my body. When I walked into an environment, for example, I'm like, I don't feel safe for some reason, but I was like, I'm going to push through. But there was something there that [01:07:00] told me that was not the space for me, but I ignored it. I dismissed it because I thought again, sometimes you can override or ignore those sensations because you're thinking, we've not been trained to really pay attention to and be attuned to what our bodies might tell us. And so what we learn from native wisdom, which we think about a lot of the indigenous communities that exist in North America, a number of, now this is not universal, but a number of the spiritual healers, the shamans were two-spirit. They were, they may not call themselves queer, but they were two-spirit, which means that they believe that there was both the masculine and feminine energy inside them. And they defied this gender binary. And in doing so, part of how they were able to, I think, invoke their wisdom based on what I've read and based on what I've heard is by paying attention to what's said, but what's not said, what's seen, but what's not seen, what's felt, but what's not felt, what's actually going on in your body and what's also going on in the body [01:08:00] of the system that surrounds you. So it's just making sure and realizing that for many leaders, we do ourselves a disservice when we ignore our intuition, our spidey sense, those little nudges that we get that tell us when we should move in one particular direction, or perhaps we should move in a different direction and making sure that we incorporate all forms of knowledge as a way of helping us to affect positive outcomes, reach certain goals, and to make sure that we achieve our mission, whatever that might be. 

Natasha Nuytten: So I agree with you, and I think we're in a space where sometimes, because we have not in Western culture, I think, done a great job of teaching people how to listen to what's happening in their bodies. And so oftentimes our fear responses are being triggered, or [01:09:00] maybe sometimes these somatic responses are off. And this in the best possible sense, or with the, I shouldn't say the best possible sense, but like the giving credit to folks for having great intention. But it is sometimes where our biases come in, because we're responding to something that isn't necessarily directing us in the right way. So can you give us a little bit of context for how someone can separate out, hey, I'm having this experience, and I am having this instinct, and I also need to evaluate. Is that knowing oneself well enough? So I'd love to hear your thoughts on that. 

Dr. Joel: I think what it really comes down to is, are you affecting self-care? Because your internal, what I call your emotional guidance system, I think I mentioned this in the book, which tells you whether to go [01:10:00] towards something or away from something, will be most advantageous if you've actually affected self-care. So that means that, have you given yourself time to really reflect, to be still? Have you taken time to be in nature? Whatever gives you life, joy, and peace, that's what I think, that's when it's most important. That's when I think you can make sure that your intuition is spot on. If you're in a situation where you're stressed, you haven't slept, you haven't, you're feeling tired or aggravated and lonely, there's this whole acronym HALT, hungry, angry, lonely, tired, where people are being triggered, that's probably not the best time to say this is, I'm getting these signals from my body, I'm getting these cues, and therefore I should do X. But then think about it from another standpoint too, it's probably not the best time as well to make decisions. It's probably not the best time to read through memos or briefs and [01:11:00] to search for data. Anytime that you're feeling off kilter, anytime that you're feeling imbalanced, it's probably not the best time to engage in some critical leadership decision or to take care of some critical function that you have to within your particular job. The best way to make sure that the signals that you're getting are accurate is to take care of yourself and to spend time and do reflection and spend time with meditation and say, is what I'm feeling really filling or is it something else? So let me give you an example of that. So am I, for example, in a situation where let's say I'm applying for a new job, is it that this job is taking me, is it something that is not really good for me or am I simply being called to a higher plane? Am I being asked to step outside of my comfort zone? And I think intuition is something that it gives you knowledge, but then this option for you to sit with it and to further examine, to see what exactly am I being told to know? Is it coming from a place of power or a place of strength or is it coming from a place of [01:12:00] fear or a place from weakness? So when you get, when I get cues and whatnot, I don't necessarily just say, for example, oh, I'm feeling this way. So this must be it. It invites me for further reflection the same way, for example, that if someone puts in front of me some information about a client, I'm also going to do some fact checking. I'm also going to do some research to make sure, is what I'm hearing, is what I'm saying accurate? What vantage point has influenced the information that's in front of me? That's what we should do for everything. It's just that when we get information from our bodies, we tend to think sometimes because of Western society that's not informative. That's not going to be effective. That's something that may be prone to misrepresentation and any information that we have, particularly in this day and age, we need to check and second check. We need to trust and verify at some point. It's the same with intuition. I know that, for example, if I haven't gone to the gym and something is bothering me, then I need to make sure that I get myself [01:13:00] recalibrated before I can trust what the information has been given to me. I know that I haven't been in nature, if I haven't gotten a lot of sleep, if I have been away from my husband or my family, then I need to make sure I'm doing those things. That way, I know that my meter, my emotional guidance system is calibrated correctly in the information that I'm getting is information that I can delve further into and find some constructive value from. 

Natasha Nuytten: Yeah. I think I agree with that. I think it has to be in concert, right? It's not like the only source, right? It has to be in concert with other things. So I appreciate that. Okay. So perceptiveness and interconnectedness are the next ones, and I think they're very closely related. 

Dr. Joel: Yeah. I think as well, queer people have always had to perceive and be in use discernment to figure out who's part of our community, where we can be safe and where it's not safe. And so as a transformational leader, when you take time to really think about [01:14:00] what's happening in the environment, what's happening and look at it from this standpoint, what's not only happening with me, what's happening between me and the individual that I'm speaking to, what's happening between me and the system that I'm a part of and what's happening between me and the world. So there's four different layers of perceptiveness to make sure that I am not being unduly influenced or biased by the information that I'm getting, is making sure that I can correctly and accurately assess what's taking place. And if I, again, am out of sorts personally, if I have a negative relationship with the person in front of me, or let's say I have a positive relationship, so there could be affinity bias. If I am in a situation where I haven't really, the environment that I'm working in, maybe it's affected me negatively, maybe it hasn't, there might be things going on in the world. So it's just a way of making sure that we are aware, it's like a form of metacognition. Why do I think the way that I do? What's influencing that? And have I checked my [01:15:00] assumptions and biases? It goes back to that original question of, why do I think what I think? And am I willing to question everything that I know to make sure that what I perceive is actually as honest and as valid as it can be? I operate from the standpoint that a lot of our truths, there are obviously some truths that are objective, but there are a lot of truths that are subjective. And so when someone, for example, tells me as an example you're going to meet this person, but they're aggressive. What gives you the perception that they're aggressive? What might be going on with me that might cause me to think that they're being aggressive? What might be my relation with this person? Do I trust them? Do I not trust them? What might be going on in the environment? What's going on in the world? So there are a number of things that I need to make sure that I interrogate and investigate to make sure that I'm not falling victim to biases. In terms of interconnectedness, it's again, recognizing that relationships are what help to drive the world and making sure that we're building a sense of community and paying attention to the relationships that we have around us [01:16:00] and recognizing again, that what happens to one person within the system is going to impact the system itself. You can get away from that. So just like throwing a rock into a lake or a pool or the ocean, there's going to be ripple effects and recognizing that if you are truly looking to be transformational, you have to make sure and to the best of your ability, that you're paying attention, not just to what's happening with you, but what's happening with the system around you, what's happening with the people around you to make sure that you can do the work that you want to do and you can have the impact that you want to have. So the best organizations that I've seen understand that. I think the queer community again, understands this whole level of interconnectedness because we realize that our struggle. So you look at that acronym LGBTQ, those are very different communities. And I know that because they are thrown together a lot. People tend to think all those subgroups, those subcultural groups are the same. They're not. There are universal values, which is what we're talking about here today. They're meta themes, but there are unique [01:17:00] differences. But I think the beauty of the LGBTQ plus community, and there's more letters to the acronym than we've shared here is recognizing that, yes, you may be a lesbian. You may be bi, which is the largest subgroup of the LGBTQ plus community. You may be trans. You may be asexual. You may be an ally. You may be intersex. You may be two-spear, but our collective journey is interconnected to each other because we're operating in a system that has a very linear two-dimensional way of thinking about gender and sexuality and everything that we are subverts that. And so it's best for us to make sure that we stay together. Unfortunately, what we're seeing now with all the attacks on trans people, I've been a little disheartened because I've seen more erosion from the LGB community in terms of support for the trans community than I would like. And I think our community is best when we recognize that we need to show up for each other and recognize that nobody, if no one will get ahead, if none of us gets ahead. So that's been a hallmark of our [01:18:00] journey and our cultural experience and recognizing too that with that rainbow flag that is flown so proudly throughout the world, we come from many different backgrounds and ethnicities and religions, et cetera, et cetera. And that's our strength. So it goes back again to the diversity piece, but our strength is in our multiculturalism, our heterogeneity and our difference. So interconnectedness. 

Natasha Nuytten: Yeah. And I love that. And, there's something about creating community as well, right? And that's such an important element. I'm glad 

Dr. Joel: you said that because community is not something that just happens always organically, particularly as you get older, right? You're not in school, you're not in college, you're not in the dormitory, what have you, not in the same neighborhood. So I think we have to recognize as leaders, but also as just people, that we had to put more effort into actually cultivating community, which means calling people more, being [01:19:00] present, maybe not just texting, but actually reaching out and saying, I really want to hear how you are doing, or better yet, let's make time to actually meet in person. How can we do that? And based on some of the examples I provide in the book around ballroom culture, the queer community has done a very good job of intentionally creating community, recognizing that it doesn't just happen on its own, but how can we make sure that we provide culture? So in the example of the ballroom community, you had literally just dozens or hundreds of queer youth who ended up in cities like New York, Chicago, San Francisco, Dallas, DC, and they were homeless. And you had older members of the community who took them in and treated them as their own family in order to ensure that those young people didn't go through the same things and to make sure that they were safe. So it was an intentional formation, creation of community. And I think we have to think about that too, in terms of how we build our lives, because community doesn't show up on its own. And I think part of what we're dealing with in our society right now is people [01:20:00] feeling alienated and people feeling lonely and people not feeling connected, which is why then you find people finding appeal in extremism or in groups that are populist is because they don't feel like they're part of something. That's something that whether you're in the workplace, whether you're working in the community is important. And I think a lot of people, frankly, because they don't have in the personal lives are looking for those types of things. And we've seen this from the data and the study. When you see what Gen Z leaders or employees want from their leaders, they want a sense of community precisely because we're not, I think our society is failing in building community in our personal space. And so people are asking workplaces to create the sense of community in the professional space. 

Natasha Nuytten: And I think whether or not it's fair, the reality is that we are social creatures. And when our social networks feel like they are failing us, we will create them someplace else. 

Dr. Joel: Correct. And I like what you said, whether it's fair or not. [01:21:00] And again, that doesn't mean that you have to be someone's best friend forever working with them. But do you create space in your company or in your spaces for people to connect as human beings? Do you have a meeting, you just jump to a agenda item or do you stop and say, hey, let's just do a check in. How are you? What's new? What's something interesting that's happened to you? What do I need to know to support you? And then you move on. 

Natasha Nuytten: Yeah, absolutely. That connection at work and the role that work can play is an entire 10 years worth of study and work, I think. But great conversation. And then lastly, and again, wanting to be respectful here. There is there are two more pieces here that I think two more pieces of wisdom. One is non-binary thinking. And the last is creativity. And I'd love to talk a little bit about how that non-binary thinking can be such a leadership strength if embraced correctly. I know it's something for me that I've been thinking [01:22:00] I worked on last year. It's also one of my goals for this year. My team will often laugh at me because I will very frequently say this and, multiple things that seem different or disparate as both equally true and being able to embrace that. And there's some alignment there, though. I know that there's this is a bigger concept. I'd love to hear your thoughts there. 

Dr. Joel: Yeah, I think the this is where we owe a huge debt of gratitude to the non-binary trans gender nonconformity community to recognize that we're looking at ideas and we're thinking about limits within society. What are sometimes posited as the only ways of doing things it's it provides or it creates a limitation in our thinking. It reduces and harms our sense of innovation, ingenuity, and it creates a barrier. And if you think about how the [01:23:00] community itself and just again, by.

Dr. Joel: virtue of their own identity, trans people have been able to say, we reject, and the LGBT community, we reject this binary of what we should be, how we should operate, who we are, then I think it becomes important for us in the leisure context to make sure that we are always questioning our, the assumed notions, that we are able to interrogate the sacred cows and the accepted ways of doing things to say what else might be possible? That's how you're able to move beyond some of the, I would say the bottlenecks that we have in society right now is because you're employing a way of thinking that goes beyond simply accepting what's already there. A system exists based on the existing or traditional way of thinking. The only way for a system to change is to employ a different mode or different style of thinking. You can't bring into creation something [01:24:00] different if you use the same means or the same thoughts that were initially used to create the very thing before you. So it's the idea of going beyond binaries and really being expansive in your thinking. So this is something, again, that the community has been able to do by virtue of this identity, whether we're talking about the trans members of our community or just the way that the LGBTQ community shows up in terms of our beingness, in terms of our identity, in terms of the way that we do things, which then leads to creation, which is, or creativity, which is the idea of how do you bring into creation things that have not existed before? So we can look at creativity from the very, the banal place of, aesthetics and beauty, appreciation for the arts. But there's also something to be said for recognizing that everything that is around us has been created at some point, but it didn't exist prior to that. So how can we use that type of creative thinking to say, [01:25:00] we don't have to be bound again, going to the non-binary discussion, we don't have to be bound by what was done before. We can, in fact, we should endeavor or strive to think of things and to bring things in that don't exist. And that's the element of creativity that is important. Creativity and creation is also a very spiritual exercise. It's not again about dance and art or theater or painting or music, which are all wonderful, but it's also about thinking again, beyond limits, letting go of restrictions, stepping outside the box to say, how can we bring something into fruition, into manifestation that we didn't have before that might help us tremendously. So you think about the communities around the world that have been able to benefit from LGBTQ creativity, whether it's South Beach, in Florida, whether it's other places around the world, Vantakamp in Cape Town, you see an element of beauty, you see an element of artistry, you see [01:26:00] a high value place on the aesthetic. But what it also suggests too, is that people have been imaginary or using their imagination in such a way that they recognize that I don't have to be limited by what I see. In fact, it is in the imagination space that I'm able to come up with the best solutions for whatever ails an organization, a community, or the planet. So those are things that, again, from a very superficial lens, the queer community has always been purveyors of art of all kinds, but also recognizing that we've had to create our own spaces. We've had to create our own definitions. We've had to create our own language. We've had to create our own ways of being, and that's allowed us to survive. And if we adopt that as thought leaders and transformational leaders, we can also help to build ecosystems that meet the needs of the world as we know it, and the world beyond what we know. 

Natasha Nuytten: Yeah. Joel, so much amazing stuff. Thank you so much [01:27:00] for sharing both from your own experience and for engaging with your community in such a way that they trust you to share with us too. I appreciate that. 

Dr. Joel: It was definitely, it was because of the trust and the trust extended to me by the community that I was able to dig in so deeply with this topic and with these meta themes and with these values. And so I just want to extend gratitude towards the community worldwide for living and being these values, expressing them every single day, even if you're not consciously aware of bringing this unique form of beauty into the world, which again, I think we all need in order to take transformational leadership to a higher place. So my deepest gratitude to the community, my gratitude to you. We seem to never have enough time to chat, so we'll definitely continue to do that. And I just want to thank your listeners and your audience too, for being patient and going through some pretty deep concepts [01:28:00] and ideas. And I hope that people will be able to use what they've heard here and what you're reading in the book, as we go into a much greater depth in the book, to help embellish your leadership practice, whatever system you work in. And again, not just in the workplace, but how you live in the world, how you live in the community, how you choose to impact your family or yourself. I hope that you will find value in what we discussed today. 

Natasha Nuytten: Thank you so much. We will share your contact information and I know that you are appreciative when people share with you. Yes. So we'll make sure that happens. In the meantime, we'll be sending good juju your way for feeling better and lots of gratitude. So thank you so much. And for those of you who are listening, please, if we can be helpful to you, if you've learned something and you want to share what you've learned, we would be grateful. So thank you very much. Let me just 

Dr. Joel: say too, I know that my book has been available on Amazon. I am working to find alternative platforms because [01:29:00] I want to make sure that we're supporting businesses that are sustainable and respect humanity. So if you come across my book and say, how do I get it? You can reach out to me and I guess I'll be making a little bit more, a few more trips to the post office. But I want to make sure that we're supporting businesses that respect humanity. So make sure that people recognize that. 

Natasha Nuytten: I appreciate that. Thank you very much. And for all of you out there listening, please keep the humanity at the center. That is really what business, how businesses thrive, how people thrive, how we are all better together. So thank you for that, Joel, appreciate you and be well. All 

Dr. Joel: right. Thank you. 

Natasha Nuytten: Take care. 

Dr. Joel: Bye-bye. 

Natasha Nuytten: That was a lot of really good, really meaningful stuff to wrestle with. But so many critical, just like foundations for leadership that I really appreciated the way that we talked about some [01:30:00] authenticity and showing up in the examples of how that works in both the queer community and in leadership and business. I really learned a lot. I hope that you did too. As Joel said, if there is something that he can learn from you, you want to share with him. If there is a way you want to reach out, I encourage you to do that. We'll make sure to include his contact information below. If you want to buy the book and you want to buy it from him directly, please let us know we're happy to pass that along as well. In the meantime, please continue to do good things, become your best selves, and I hope that you keep the human side up. We'll see you 

soon.